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Why not TB's?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
    Christa,

    Please help me..... What's a POA cross pony??
    Ponies of the Americas....Knapstruber/appaloosa/british spotted ponies marked,western type ponies and

    in the beginning.... they were mainly crossed on welsh A's and quarter horses...now they are almost totally midget QH's

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
      Interesting take. So are you saying the trainer is wrong for not wanting to take T/B'S as driving horses?

      And how would you train the hot bloods to drive and how did you find them? Or are you talking about riding horses and things in general??
      A trainer can accept whatever they want. I don't think it's "right" or "wrong." But a trainer is wrong when they blame the horse because it's a __________ (fill in the blank.) To make a blanket statement that all TBs are junk shows how inept the trainer is. People have preferences of course, but just because I "prefer" Arabians doesn't mean that __________ (fill in the blank) are worthless.

      I trained my mother's TBs to long line and ground drive. We never had a cart so they were never hitched. I was commenting in general regarding TBs, their personalities and trainability. It's a red flag to me when a trainer blames a horse based upon breed.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
        Christa,

        Please help me..... What's a POA cross pony??
        The orginal POAs (Pony of Americas) were Shetland Pony/Appaloosa crosses. They also have some Quarter Horse, Arabian and Welsh Pony added in. They are to be western-type ponies with Appaloosa marking and a little more refined head like an Arab or pretty Welsh Pony. http://www.poac.org/breed/history.htm

        Comment


        • #24
          POA = Pony of the Americas, basicly a pony sized appaloosa.

          My gelding was a rescue and doesn't have any papers, but he would meet the breed standard. The mare is by the gelding (we rescued him as a 3 yr old stallion and bred him to 1 mare) and also has the POA coloring. She is out of a draft pony mare that she had been bred for weight pulling contests.

          Both ponies are 12H and they are well matched, though not perfect.

          Christa

          Comment


          • #25
            Here we go again. Auventura Two, no one made any such comment about TB's here and I don't believe any of the drivers on this forum *would* make any such comment. I've owned three TB x's in my life and they were talented horses. I would not have chosen to drive any of them, given the 3 individual horses concerned, but they surely weren't junk to me. Cool your jets a bit and read what people are saying. Some breeds of horses are better suited to certain jobs than other breeds of horses. That statement in no way impugns the integrity or value of any breed of horses.

            Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
            To make a blanket statement that all TBs are junk shows how inept the trainer is.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by RidesAHaflinger View Post
              Here we go again. Auventura Two, no one made any such comment about TB's here and I don't believe any of the drivers on this forum *would* make any such comment. I've owned three TB x's in my life and they were talented horses. I would not have chosen to drive any of them, given the 3 individual horses concerned, but they surely weren't junk to me. Cool your jets a bit and read what people are saying. Some breeds of horses are better suited to certain jobs than other breeds of horses. That statement in no way impugns the integrity or value of any breed of horses.
              She was commenting on a PARTICULAR Trainer (See post 1 in the thread) that refused to take on ANY TB to train for driving saying they were all useless. She was not making a general statement.

              I agree, most TBs should not be driving, but THIS Trainer would not even evaluate ANY TB.

              Christa

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by RidesAHaflinger View Post
                Here we go again. Auventura Two, no one made any such comment about TB's here and I don't believe any of the drivers on this forum *would* make any such comment. I've owned three TB x's in my life and they were talented horses. I would not have chosen to drive any of them, given the 3 individual horses concerned, but they surely weren't junk to me. Cool your jets a bit and read what people are saying. Some breeds of horses are better suited to certain jobs than other breeds of horses. That statement in no way impugns the integrity or value of any breed of horses.
                I was just going to say the same thing. You have a breed that for over a century has been bred for running and in a smaller part running and jumping. You hae other breeds that for over a century have been bred for driving. In general, if you were to pick joe blow horse from the Thoroughbred breed and Joe Blow horse from a driving breed which one is more likely to make the safe driving horse for the amateur hobbyist? The horse from the breed bred to be suitable for driving. Of course there are examples of the opposite in each case, but in general the reason why you see Standardbreds, Saddlebreds, Hackneys, Friesians, Welsh Cobs, Morgans, Dutch Harness Horses, Gelderlanders, Cleveland Bays, Kladrubers, Lipizzans, Haflingers, Fjords and the like in harness is these are breeds that have been selectivey bred for work in harness or as dual purpose horses for quite some time. No one has said you can't drive a Thoroughbred, but you don't see as many of them proportionatly doing work in harness compared to the proportion in the general population because they have not been selectively bred to be the type of horse as a whole that is suitable for the work.

                Comment


                • #28
                  I must say that I do disagree with driving trainers who flat-out refuse to take ANY TB and claim they are too dangerous to drive. I think that's breed prejudice pure and simple. As any trainer *should* know, you have got to evaluate each horse as an individual, regardless of its breed. I can think of QH (Penny being the classic example) that would be way more dangerous to drive than my TB. There are exceptions to every rule.

                  Funny story in this regard though - a BNDT who had refused to take Avery on the "he's a TB" grounds subsequently showed up at the in-gate of a pleasure show at the same time we did. While the Friesian cross (I think it was, or Canadien cross or something "more suitable" like that) that he was training fussed and fumed, Avery did what every sensible ex "A" Circuit horse does when it gets sent to the in-gate too early: he took the opportunity to catch a snooze. As my TB dozed off while the BNDT and 2 grooms attempted to keep their horse's 4 feet on the ground, the BNDT, quite to his credit I thought, burst out laughing and said "Wow. Yeah. Those Thoroughbreds. They're WAY too hot to drive!" The punchline is that the "more suitable" horse ended up washing out of driving after a brief 2-year career (of which I could tell much more, but won't). The "unsuitable TB" is still happily taking beginners for little drives 5 years later.

                  I've never had anything else but TBs (and one ASB early on) and trained my current TB to drive after he had had a long successful career as an amateur jumper. Several things worked in my favor from day one:

                  1. Temperament and attitude. HRH Avery did not want to retire and he wanted a job. With TBs, so much of whether they will be successful or not depends on their attitude and whether they "take to" their new job or not. Avery did take to it. He is preternaturally bright (and I say this as a 40+-year owner/trainer of Smart TBs - I don't like stupid so I don't buy stupid, but I've only had one other as bright as this guy) and he loffs to learn new things and show off what he knows. He's also a big, relaxed, phlegmatic Oirish Harse with a boatload more common sense than those w/ more typically "American" pedigrees.

                  2. He had no inherent conformational issues that would preclude driving him - other than the shark-fin withers, which I still think would cause him problems with harness saddle fit if we were doing anything strenous like combined driving. Conformation IMO is the biggest problem anyone who wants to drive a TB is going to have. The horse must have a very strong and very well-conformed back end. If you look at the available CANTER TBs, I honestly see maybe 1-2 per *year* that have conformation that looks as if it would be up to the job. And *then* you've got to find the one with the right temperament - so you could be looking for quite a while...

                  3. He had been *very* well trained in his flatwork already, and had never been wrecked by bad riding, so no need to do anything remedial in that regard. He already knew his lateral work and so on, so it was really just a matter of teaching him "yes, you DO need to do that with the cart, too."

                  4. During the groundwork phase, I left absolutely NO stone unturned in my quest to make sure he completely understood his brief before I ever hitched him up. I've already said that he was never trained to go on roads or trails, so I spent 3 years ground-driving him out there until he learned what was expected. Another of the "holes" in his training that concerned me most was making DAMN sure he understood that jump posts are now for driving between, not jumping over. I had every intention of ending up with a horse who...

                  ...is clearly plotting and planning how to jump these verticals, all right...

                  So Avery and I invented a sport we called "Xtreme Ground Driving" specifically for this purpose. He was, in effect, ground driving arena hazards at walk, trot and canter for 8 months before he ever even *saw* a cart. Most pro trainers cannot afford to take this kind of time over a horse. If they cannot, or don't want to be bothered, then they probably should not try messing with TBs. Thomas is quite correct that when training them, you have got to sweat the details, and you've got one shot to get it right. If you scare them, they will not forgive. And they are very quick - although in fairness I think most hotbloods are. You must pay attention every single second you drive them. But then again, you should be doing that anyway...

                  My mileage is very much the same as Big Belgian's, esp. as to TBs being 2 steps ahead of you. There were lots of times while training Avery that I would run to my driving trainer or CD-L for help/advice only to find during the next schooling session that Avery had already worked out how to fix whatever issue we'd been having, and was ready to move on.

                  Hitching him for the first time was the biggest non-event in the history of the planet. Does this horse look stressed, worried or confused to you? I was prepared for fireworks and had 2 big strong guys heading him with longe lines, an ASB trainer in the box seat, and me at his head for consolation. He looked at me like "What are YOU so worried about? Did you seriously think I didn't see this coming 3-4 *weeks* ago?" Hitched him up and told him "walk, Avery" and, somewhat cautiously, away we went. Not a spook, not an instant's panic or worry. The ASB trainer was fascinated watching him work out How To Pull A Cart - said she'd never seen a horse TRY that hard to learn a new job, and that she could actually *see* him thinking things through and trying to learn how to handle things like soft spots in the arena footing.

                  So... In the final analysis, I believe TBs are perfectly driveable IF you find the right one in terms of temperament, brains and conformation, and IF you then take the time to train it properly.
                  "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I was commenting on Post #1 in which a trainer was referenced who outright refuses TBs simply on the pretense that they are TBs. And also we have a local trainer that does the same. I never said anyone HERE ever said any such thing. Sheesh people, read for comprehension.

                    In some cases a particular person might have one horse - a TB - and they want to drive. So go for it if you want to. Who cares that it's a TB, and TBs don't typically drive. People ride dressage on their cow ponies, and jump their Drafts. If that's all you have and want to make a go of it, then do it. Don't let someone tell you that you CAN'T based only on the idea that your horse is a TB (or whatever.) If you're not competitive against stronger competition, then oh well. But have fun doing what you're doing.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Gestalt View Post
                      I've been working with a trainer that will not accept a TB on his farm let alone train one. He said he has tried in the past and they are not worth the time and money. Also, he feels that they can never be reliable as far as safety.
                      THIS is the comment to which I was referring. THIS particular trainer feels all TBs are junk. I happen to disagree.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
                        THIS is the comment to which I was referring. THIS particular trainer feels all TBs are junk. I happen to disagree.
                        And I'm with ya, Auventura.
                        "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I stand corrected. Sorry I missed that! However, I did go back to read the first post more carefully and this is what I get from it: The OP said the trainer had tried training TB's to drive in the past and that it hadn't worked out for him. We don't know how many TB's he attempted to train and what the problems and outcomes were with each. The trainer might have had a string of experiences that led him to reach his conclusion. He is quoted as saying they were not worth the time and money to train and not reliable as far as safety. Those statements might be very true within his experience as a trainer. His actual position on the issue might be a far cry from labeling all TB's as "junk." We just don't know. For whatever reasons he came to his conclusion, he's within his rights to work with the horses he chooses to, just as the OP is within her rights to keep shopping for a trainer who will work with her horse.

                          Originally posted by Christa P View Post
                          She was commenting on a PARTICULAR Trainer (See post 1 in the thread) that refused to take on ANY TB to train for driving saying they were all useless. She was not making a general statement.

                          I agree, most TBs should not be driving, but THIS Trainer would not even evaluate ANY TB.

                          Christa
                          Last edited by RidesAHaflinger; Jun. 10, 2007, 04:08 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            TBs are lovely horses...and my preferred breed for hunters, both in the ring and chasing after the beasts.

                            I've also a friend who drives a 4-in-hand of nothing but chestnut TBs. One of his reasons...he can always find a chestnut TB that'll match what he's got in his team. He's got a field full of em' in fact.

                            TBs are wonderful guys...just not for the ill-trained or sloppy "passenger"...you ride a TB.
                            "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
                              A trainer can accept whatever they want. I don't think it's "right" or "wrong." But a trainer is wrong when they blame the horse because it's a __________ (fill in the blank.) To make a blanket statement that all TBs are junk shows how inept the trainer is. People have preferences of course, but just because I "prefer" Arabians doesn't mean that __________ (fill in the blank) are worthless.

                              I trained my mother's TBs to long line and ground drive. We never had a cart so they were never hitched. I was commenting in general regarding TBs, their personalities and trainability. It's a red flag to me when a trainer blames a horse based upon breed.
                              So let me get this right:

                              basically your claimed experience is minimal but you have never trained a horse to drive, you don't know how to ground drive or is it long line
                              and you've never driven a harness horse.

                              But you've figured that a trainer who
                              has tried in the past and they are not worth the time and money. Also, he feels that they can never be reliable as far as safety
                              is wrong.
                              Originally posted by Auventera
                              In some cases a particular person might have one horse - a TB - and they want to drive. So go for it if you want to. Who cares that it's a TB, and TBs don't typically drive.
                              And furthermore despite your lack of driving experience and driving training you have such forthright views mmm. Most interesting.
                              Originally posted by Auventera
                              THIS particular trainer feels all TBs are junk. I happen to disagree
                              Then you say the trainer thinks all T/B's are junk Where did you manage to read that? Suggest you might want to follow your own advice

                              Originally posted by Auventera
                              Sheesh people, read for comprehension.
                              Or do you now have it in your mind that I think all T/B's are junk because of what I said about T/B's NOT generally making good driving horses?


                              Interesting take. You have opinions, I have knowledge and experience. There's a difference.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Thank you everyone for your views. While it's great to purchase a horse that's bred for a specific task, many horses in the USA do not meet that requirement. We have a lot of horses that come from racing backgrounds that are then retrained to be useable (and loved) by ammy-owners.

                                The horse I took to the trainer is my Standardbred. He is doing fine and because I trust him, I enjoy him. I have another horse that the trainer said we can start when I'm ready. However he has flat refused to even consider the TB. I'm not holding this against him. As a person making his living from horses he has decided to accept into training the ones that he 'understands' and can get the best results from. I was just wondering if people that were already driving saw a huge problem with the TB's.

                                There were some very scary horses at the CDE's I've attended (as a volunteer) this past summer. And these horses are bred for driving. Several Morgans and a Fresian. Borderline crazy in my book.

                                My TB doesn't need to learn to drive. Right now his forte is standing in the pasture looking really pretty. And doing it well.

                                Thank you again for your opinions and pictures!
                                Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Are most "Cleveland Bays" used in driving nowadays actually CBxTBs instead of pure CBs?
                                  Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
                                  People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
                                  "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
                                    Are most "Cleveland Bays" used in driving nowadays actually CBxTBs instead of pure CBs?
                                    Not sure what you mean or which ones specifically you've seen or are thinking about?

                                    But there's plenty of purebred Cleveland Bays driven and there's also t/b cross and not just with C/B. I've got a mass of t/b crossed with connemara and irish draft and cleveland bay and friesian

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Tamara in TN View Post
                                      Ponies of the Americas....Knapstruber/appaloosa/british spotted ponies marked,western type ponies and

                                      in the beginning.... they were mainly crossed on welsh A's and quarter horses...now they are almost totally midget QH's
                                      Tamara in TN
                                      thank you. I think that is what I'd call a "bitsa"

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Not to derail the thread, but I'm kinda surprised Thomas didn't mention that back in the old days there was far more of a tradition of driving TBs than there is now.

                                        George IV as Prince of Wales and his gentlemen friends used to do the equivalent of "drag racing" with fours of TBs hitched to a road coach. They would race them from post to post along the coaching roads. I don't mean all at once - they would go one at a time, and time it.

                                        As an Arsenal FC fan, I was doing research on a project and in a passing conversation w/ the AFC librarian, discovered that back when Arsenal FC was based at an actual military facility called Dial Square Arsenal, while the enlisted men were starting a football team, the officers were starting one of the first ever tandem driving societies in GB. According to notes and journals the librarian was kind enough to dig out and quote for me, it was apparently considered quite sporting indeed among the young officers to drive a tandem of TBs. So it was definitely done, no question about it - but then as now it was not necessarily for the faint of heart!

                                        Again, I agree w/ Auventura on the point that if you try to rush a TB, you're going to end up with a dangerous TB. This holds true no matter what discipline you are retraining it for. You need to break the data up into smaller chunks sometimes and let them process it more slowly.

                                        Another point to be considered is that much though I loff my TBs, I'll be the first to admit that they are slow developers in the emotional sense and can act very immature for rather longer than other breeds. This is why, for my personal riding/retraining horses, I tend to look for older ones who are coming off the track at age 10 or 11. (Avery was 16 when I started him driving.) An older TB can quite often be the most sensible horse in any barn, but it does take them WAY longer to get to that point!

                                        I also agree re sport horse bloodlines. Turn-To, for example (who features heavily in Avery's pedigree ), is revered in sport horse circles, but many racing people this side of the pond have never even heard of him! If nothing else, owning and training Avery has convinced me of the validity of the Turn-To/Ribot cross both for racing AND sport (cf. Barbaro - Avery being much older has it at grandsire level). Dynaformer always was a stallion who was straight up my alley - but the problem is going to be finding cheap Dynaformers to make sport horses out of, now that he's the flavor of the week in racing!
                                        "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
                                          Not to derail the thread, but I'm kinda surprised Thomas didn't mention that back in the old days there was far more of a tradition of driving TBs than there is now.

                                          !
                                          there were more TB's driven in the old days but even in the old books it says that (paraphrased) "too much needless stopping annoys a high couraged horse"

                                          Thomas will correct me but I have always thought that was referring to TB horses (Thomas ???)

                                          also a cold blooded,heavy horse would lug against the hands and tire a coachman....and they also made allowances and recommendations for different horses for different terrains...hilly county used one sort of horse and long dead stretches used another and stop and go traffic used another...

                                          Tamara in TN
                                          Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                          I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

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