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Wheel-types & breed shows

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  • #21
    Ahhh, OK, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!

    So am I reading correctly that horses in the breed-specific classes would *not* be eligible for the Open Pleasure Driving Championship class? So, e.g., you couldn't cross-enter your ASB Show Pleasure Horse into Open?

    If that is the case then I think the class list as stated is probably fine, IF you also want to specify that "open" is open to wood-wheeled vehicles.

    But then it wouldn't be a points class.

    Would that work?
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
      Ahhh, OK, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!

      So am I reading correctly that horses in the breed-specific classes would *not* be eligible for the Open Pleasure Driving Championship class? So, e.g., you couldn't cross-enter your ASB Show Pleasure Horse into Open?

      If that is the case then I think the class list as stated is probably fine, IF you also want to specify that "open" is open to wood-wheeled vehicles.

      But then it wouldn't be a points class.

      Would that work?
      The open class is consider a local member event under USEF rules and in that case those running the show can make whatever rules for it they want. If is the specific breed rules events that you can't be changed. Also, any horse at the show can enter it, includingt he ones already going in their breed specific driving class if they would like to go in more than 1 class in the show.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #23
        The open class is consider a local member event under USEF rules and in that case those running the show can make whatever rules for it they want.
        Thanks, Renae. Currently, the show has all open classes follow the rules of their associations/USEF, with exceptions for 1-2 classes.

        Using that logic, we couldn't change the rules of the open classes to keep out wire wheels.

        I'm still not sure which group, or if it was just one person, asked about the switch. It might even be for a "local" show circuit.

        Thanks so much for your help (but keep talking so I keep learning!)
        I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
        Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by Renae View Post
          The open class is consider a local member event under USEF rules and in that case those running the show can make whatever rules for it they want. If is the specific breed rules events that you can't be changed. Also, any horse at the show can enter it, includingt he ones already going in their breed specific driving class if they would like to go in more than 1 class in the show.
          ...Right, OK. But I thiiiiiiiiinnnk the question HFB originally asked - or rather, *was* asked by a competitor - was, is there any way for competitors with wooden-wheeled vehicles to compete for USEF points at this show (correct me if I'm wrong, HFB). And I thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnk the only way that could happen would be to add or substitute a Carriage Pleasure class.

          Or have I still got the wrong end of the stick??
          "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
            I've also stated before that pretty dang obviously the ADS is falling flat on its asp when it comes to governing pleasure shows in the Southeast Region. The calendar has dwindled to the point where if you don't live within reasonable driving distance of Florida or Southern Pines, there's nothing left.
            Perhaps I am misunderstanding this situation, but the only people who can make sure pleasure driving shows exist in the SE are the show organizers and competitors. If there are enough competitors to warrant providing pleasure driving shows, then they need to work with an organizer to do this. The ADS cannot create shows or put them on their calendar unless they have people willing to run them and compete in them.

            Yes, combined driving is becoming the mainstay of the ADS omnibus, but this is because combined driving is growing by leaps and bounds. And yes, in our area, there are many people who also compete in pleasure driving and because of this, there is a nice selection of pleasure driving shows to go to (run by local organizations--for example, Brandywine Valley Carriage Driving Club and Garden State Carriage Driving club--made up of these competitors).

            In regard to conflicting dates, this is an issue that all organizations face. I do not know the history of pleasure shows in the SE and how they were/are affected by conflicts, so I can't comment on that. I do know that the Georgia International CDE and Southern Pines CDE had conflicting dates this year, but they are, of course, CDEs, not pleasure driving shows.

            The ADS certainly is faced with many issues, but I do know that the people involved with ADS are putting a lot of effort into meeting the needs of their members. I think it is easy to stand back and say what they are doing wrong, but until we are willing to become actively involved in some capacity and help them grow and continue meeting the needs of members, that we should withhold harsh criticism of their efforts.

            Kelly

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            • Original Poster

              #26
              Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
              ...Right, OK. But I thiiiiiiiiinnnk the question HFB originally asked - or rather, *was* asked by a competitor - was, is there any way for competitors with wooden-wheeled vehicles to compete for USEF points at this show (correct me if I'm wrong, HFB). And I thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnk the only way that could happen would be to add or substitute a Carriage Pleasure class.

              Or have I still got the wrong end of the stick??
              I'm not sure, LOL! It may be USEF points or it may be for a "local" circuit. The person who was asked is out on errands for the afternoon.

              I feel like I'm playing "telephone" here
              I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
              Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by HighFlyinBey+ View Post
                I feel like I'm playing "telephone" here
                LOL, I bet you do. BTW you have my sympathies trying to organize a show under the 4 sets of rules - that's got to be *several* plateloads of information too many. You're doing a good job though!!

                I guess what I'd do in your situation is track back to whoever asked the question, see what, specifically, they wanted, and if it *is* something that's not on your schedule, ask if they can come up with a sponsor for it. : cool: The breed shows hereabouts usually work that way - if you want a class/division added and you can come up w/ the entries and/or the $$, you can usually get it added.

                The answer to *your* original question is that I don't think legally you can restrict any of the breed classes to wood-wheeled vehicles only. They each have to stick to their own rules. Best/least expensive solution to level the playing field for wood-wheeled peeps would be to add a Carriage Pleasure class, open to all breeds.

                HOPE that helps, but not sure!
                "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  That might be a solution, even if it is adding one more class. If that person/s wants it, they have to foot the bill for the Carriage Pleasure class (that's the correct name??)

                  Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm not the show manager, but I seem to have the most stuff stuck in my head. I used to bring 3 horses to that show, help run it AND run the Youth program

                  This year, I'm flying in, not showing (it's now 18 hrs away) and not doing the kiddie stuff. We ARE having a wine/cheese party on Saturday night (with some margies thrown in for good measure!) That ought to be fun
                  I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
                  Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Thing is, you want to avoid any appearance of impropriety, so if it comes down to you being the one that does the asking, ask the competitor to sponsor some *other* class that s/he will not be entering. When I used to ask for classes to be added, I'd just tell the organizer "Here's a class sponsorship - apply it wherever it's needed" and that worked out fine for everyone.

                    Running these shows is a bear, but it can be really fun if it's a good team!
                    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      hey lady!!!

                      Glad to see you back. I guess this thread is about a show you used to speak of up in Wisconsin.

                      Good luck with your show. Glas to hear June Bug is still with you.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Hey girl!

                        This is actually our national show in Sterling, IL. I'm impressed you remembered the WI show--it's been a long time

                        Miss Bug won't leave me if I can help it. She's happily earning her keep as a school pony this summer. Yep, lil' ole Ay-rab mare hasn't been ridden in 2 years and she's still a gem
                        I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
                        Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          We know how those Ayrabs really are!!!

                          Glad you dropped by!!! Stay in touch!

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            I lurk a lot on this forum. I'm learning just how little I know and how lucky I am to have June Bug. I'm not ready for the (deserved) flogging I know I'll get if/when certain poster find out how I managed not to die training her.
                            I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
                            Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I had always just assumed that it was sort of a way to keep the fine harness/pleasure driving horses out of classes that were designed to be for carriage driving, to help make sure that what was under the judge was more appropriately judged. Not sure if I have worded this very clearly, so if you are not sure what I mean, please ask!
                              If we have to nail on talent, it's not talent.
                              Founder, Higher Standards Leather Care Addicts Anonymous

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                I feel like an idiot asking, but could you give a basic description of carriage driving vs. fine harness? I think that would help me get the right picture in my mind.
                                I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
                                Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Sure, no problem...

                                  Carriage driving.

                                  Fine Harness.

                                  See the differences?

                                  Carriage driving: Wood-wheeled, heavy duty vehicle and harness suitable for road and cross country work; frame/way of going of horse ditto.

                                  Fine Harness: Everything is for show only. Uber-lightweight vehicle and harness which would collapse in 10 seconds or less if sent across country. Horse can carry itself in that upright frame b/c it's not pulling a lot of weight.

                                  You can see why both in the same class would be something of a problem!
                                  "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Yikes.

                                    Yeah, I can definitely see a problem! It'd be like trying to judge hunter pleasure, saddleseat & WP at the same time. Possible (unrated locals do it all the time), but definitely not easy. I wish we'd get more driving horses to come to this show so that we could justify separating them--I sure don't want to drop driving altogether.

                                    Thanks!
                                    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
                                    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by HighFlyinBey+ View Post
                                      Yeah, I can definitely see a problem! It'd be like trying to judge hunter pleasure, saddleseat & WP at the same time. Possible (unrated locals do it all the time), but definitely not easy. I wish we'd get more driving horses to come to this show so that we could justify separating them--I sure don't want to drop driving altogether.
                                      Yes, finding qualified judges who can and will judge each type to its discipline/breed standard is very difficult (as is finding *trainers* who can *train* to each standard, BTW, although we are blessed with several in this area). USEF is very helpful in this regard however. And it would help a lot more if more ADS judges applied for their USEF cards (hint hint).

                                      Please, whatever you do, though, DON'T drop the driving classes!! Find sponsors, keep offering them, and publicize publicize publicize. People will come.
                                      "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        The judge we've hired is "R" in all 3 breeds, but does that translate into the ability to judge driving well?

                                        We've had some misfortunes with the show in past years, mostly related to the location (one venue kicked us out for a show that made more money; we lost another thanks to Katrina + Rita = no entries). Our goal this year is to come up with a class schedule that can be counted on as "stable" for the next 3 years. At that time, we plan to revisit the lineup and see what needs to be changed.

                                        I really hope by that time we have enough drivers to expand the classes
                                        I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
                                        Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by HighFlyinBey+ View Post
                                          The judge we've hired is "R" in all 3 breeds, but does that translate into the ability to judge driving well?
                                          Well, your judge will most certainly be able to judge all 3 breeds to their respective *breed* standards in any type of driving each breed offers, which is the most important thing, in your situation. If you end up putting a carriage driving class in, it may have to be non-rated unless your judge is licensed or can get (I think it's called?) a guest card for that.

                                          It's soooooooooo complicated!
                                          "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

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