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ground driving!

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  • #41
    Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
    Isn't there a big difference between long-lining and ground driving?

    Thomas! Please explain? Thank you.
    Yes there is indeed and I'm sure that SLC2 or Auventura will enlighten us!
    Last edited by Thomas_1; May. 31, 2007, 06:34 PM.


    • #42
      Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
      Actually, long lining and ground driving is about as kindergarten as you can get!!
      You don't half talk some twaddle!

      You might also be interested to know that the Spanishce Hofreitschule don't agree with you. But heck! What would they know!?!
      These are the very basics, before working bitted up in side reins, before riding, before pulling a cart, before pretty much anything excepting grooming, tying, and standing for the farrier.
      I find it utterly incredible that you have seen fit to come to the driving threads to lecture experience carriage drivers how to long rein and train a horse to stand. You know jack sh** about training or driving. There's people on these threads that have socks older than you!
      "In America the young are always ready to give to those who are older than themselves the full benefits of their inexperience" - Oscar Wilde

      Schooling the horse in hand through all the Grand Prix movements, including aires, is NOT the same thing as teaching a youngster about bit pressure and steering through the use of long lining or ground driving.
      You never answered my questions earlier but please add: What experience do you have training baroque horses? What airs above ground have you taught and precisely how did you do them?

      The level to which the SRS schools movements in hands is far above what most of us will ever do with our horses in hand.
      When did you go to Vienna?

      And long lining and ground driving are in fact very basic things to teach a youngster.
      And how comes if you know it all you hadn't appreciated that long reining is actually advanced training for a horse.

      Whilst you may well piddle about with both reins slapped over the back of your horse, carriage drivers do advanced work training the horse for the likes of driven dressage and trust me, you don't do that how you think you do in your dreams!

      What about the pillars? SRS horses are worked in the pillars, which are essentially cross ties. I consider cross tying to be pretty darned basic stuff.
      You'll be telling us next that just like the Spanish Riding School your horses do passage and levade in whilst cross tied. Well after all it is pretty darned basic stuff isn't it duhhh!

      So I guess you would also try to say that cross tying is some high school advanced level movement since the SRS stallions work between the pillars? *snort*
      "Sometimes its best to say nothing and let people think you're stupid rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt"
      Last edited by Thomas_1; May. 31, 2007, 06:39 PM.


      • #43
        There are photos of me long-lining and ground-driving one of my youngsters as a long yearling 3 years ago at http://community.webshots.com/user/karenharper1 Click on the album called "Mickey." You will see that the lines are low on his sides. This is how I was taught to begin a youngster in the long lines. You will see that there is a generally unbroken line from my hands to his mouth and that the young horse is moving quietly and accepting contact. I was taught that lines up through the rein terrets doesn't happen until later in the horse's training and in fact increases the leverage you have on his mouth. There is a further advantage to having the lines low along his sides and this is that it makes it much more difficult for the inexperienced horse to turn and face you and get himself entangled in the lines. I also made sure that the horse would accept the line running behind his haunches before I ever took a step with him away from the hitching rail. Some folks call this "sacking out". Some might call it "kindergarten"- whatever it is, the horse should accept lines being draped all over his body before you ever attempt to drive him in the lines. To do otherwise is to invite a panicky, potentially disastrous reaction from the young horse the first time he feels the line touching his leg, flank, etc. My horses also were accustomed to a crupper before they ever left the hitch rail since they were destined to become carriage ponies. You can see in the photo called "long-lining," which was taken during this horse's first lesson in the lines, that he is quite accepting of the line running above his hocks. Lines through the terrets and over the horse's back to your hands is, again, a more leveraged position and comes later in the horse's training. But that's just the way I learned it and I'm certainly no expert. I do have a pretty good library of long-lining and in-hand training books that I rely on in between sessions with my trainer.

        These photos were taken during the groundwork phase of this horse's early driving education but I have continued to work both of my horses in the long lines because I find it to be a really useful and fun training method. We're not doing airs above ground just yet but my horses will do figures of 8 and serpentines at the trot; shoulder-in and haunches-in at the walk and they will side-pass in the long lines.

        I'd like to see pictures of others long-lining and ground-driving your horses for comparison.


        • #44

          And here's one I took on my last visit:

          Last edited by Thomas_1; May. 31, 2007, 07:09 PM.


          • #45
            Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
            Its called short hand rein and also sometimes known as short lining and is a technique employed in classical horse training and which I also utilise.

            But its not ground driving and its not long reining!
            Well, I am actually becoming confused because...well, the terms are used inconsistently in this thread. the Title of the thread says "ground driving"...so that has been what I am picturing (and what is what is described in the books...and what I have been learning)....

            Sorry I am so confused. Oy. I will retreat and learn if I can sort this all out .


            • #46
              The photos that Thomas presented are what I refer to as driving or "ground driving". Reins used over the back are to me simply lunging in double lines which may or may not have one line around the hind quarters.

              Since I ride and have only been introduced to driving on a limited basis I tend to use the rein over the back to get in-hand work but then that is the same method the Spanish Riding schools use.

              Driving as Thomas presented I will use to enhance the lateral responsivness of my horse.

              Originally posted by Coup De Des:2469753
              Freedom, in story books the heroine always rescues the naggy, emaciated, neglected horse and has him from whoa to show in 3 months, despite the fact that she's never showed a horse before and must overcome many obstacles along the way such as the evil previous owner trying to reclaim horse, the horse getting sick, the horse being stolen, trouble with the family, stumbling across a jolly good old fashioned mystery with George, Anne, Timmy the dog and those boys...

              Didn't you know that?

              CDD..Oppps sorry my bad.

              yes, i was joking
              SLC you are right and a joke.


              • #47
                Here Long reining is just called long reining (or long lining or in some regional farming community areas then it might be called ground driving). But its called that whether its done as I am in those photos or whether its done on a circle. If we say ground driving or long reining here, it means the same thing. The former though would tend to be used by the heavy horse fraternity and the latter by the light horse and riding horse fraternity

                I'm trawling through trying to find photos long reining on a circle which I think is what you guys call long reining. But I think I'm going to need to scan some tomorrow.

                Since I ride and have only been introduced to driving on a limited basis I tend to use the rein over the back to get in-hand work but then that is the same method the Spanish Riding schools use.
                Its not. The Spanish Riding school long rein absolutely no different to how I do it. When they have the rein over the back that is short reining or short hand rein. I've got a load of photos of them doing both and will scan those for you too if you want to see them. The last photo I posted shows the 3 techniques mentioned. One horse being long reined - you can see the guy behind it. One horse doing short hand rein work - you can see the guy walking at its shoulder. And the final one in pillar reins doing basic kindergarten passage.


                • #48
                  Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                  at the same time, i know from dressage, that while bulletin board debates may demand the author to provide 'sources' and be able to debate cleverly to win bb popularity contests (people who don't quote sources argue they have 'practical experience' and chide those who quote books; those who quote books call those who don't 'uneducated', but it's very common in the TOB-style dressage debates to hear book quotes demanded or be roundly dissed), books aren't everything. there's no substitute for simply getting lessons from a good driving trainer. i think of books as a companion to learning any riding sport...but not the whole deal.

                  SLC I have read a ton of books. I have also taken lessons and now give lessons. There is a huge gap between quoting a book to "appear" you know something and actually quoting a specific passage that applies to the problem at hand to SUPPORT your real life experience.

                  Also when you quote it is nice to quote word for word as that author spend time and effort to express their thoughts and feelings in a very specific way and to bastardize a quote does the author a huge disservice.


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                    Its not. The Spanish Riding school long rein absolutely no different to how I do it. When they have the rein over the back that is short reining or short hand rein. I've got a load of photos of them doing both and will scan those for you too if you want to see them.
                    Thomas, I am referring to the more close up in hand work that is the result of working from a more distant position ( normal sized circle) to the closer in hand work done to achieve the more collected movements.

                    I personally don't drive from behind that much anymore.


                    • #50
                      I'm probably being thick, but I don't know which you mean?

                      do you have a photo?


                      • #51
                        HundredAcres, I'll give you my definition of the terms. From what I can gather, this is pretty universally accepted: "Ground-driving" is driving a horse from behind just as if he were hitched to a vehicle, except that he's not hitched. The driver walks along behind the horse. "Long-lining" is much more complicated and involves sending the horse away from you. The horse may be circling you as if longeing (hence the term "double-longeing") or he may be executing a variety of turns and changes of direction. All of this requires considerable skill on the part of the handler who has to be in the right place at the right time to properly cue the horse. During many if not most sessions, the techniques of ground-driving and long-lining are both used.

                        Short-reining is something you just have to see to believe. That's the way I felt about it when I was at the SRS and saw those incredible horses doing tempi changes, piaffe, passage and much more- and all with the handler right at the horse's haunch, with a 6' rein in each hand, his hands on either side of the horse's tail, giving aids that, try as I might, I could NOT begin to see. It's just the most humbling and awesome partnership between horse and human that you can imagine and truly something to aspire to.


                        • #52
                          Did you manage to go to Piber as well? I've been going over for about 20 years now - even before they stopped you taking photos! And have been very fortunate to go to masterclasses on long reining.


                          • #53
                            No, I did not get to visit the stud but I hope to get there on my next trip. I would love to take the long reining classes although I'm nowhere near the master level! As for photos, people are still snapping away even though it's *not allowed*. I followed the rules and got no photos as a result.


                            • #54
                              Ack...the confusion is finally resolved. THANK YOU RidesaHaflinger.

                              I do not long line...I longe and ground drive. So my other question about the kimberwik now means, well, something altogether different. And NOW I understand some of this thread.

                              I appreciate the clarification. *slinking away...feeling a little dumb, but nonetheless a little smarter*

                              Sorry for hijacking here.
                              Last edited by hundredacres; May. 31, 2007, 08:30 PM.


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by RidesAHaflinger View Post
                                No, I did not get to visit the stud but I hope to get there on my next trip. I would love to take the long reining classes although I'm nowhere near the master level! As for photos, people are still snapping away even though it's *not allowed*. I followed the rules and got no photos as a result.
                                When Sue and I last went, an American lady next to her got thrown out for taking photos! Expensive mistake!!!

                                Did you go to the carriage museum at the Schonbrunn Palace? I got a load of awesome photos there.


                                • #56
                                  Thomas - sorry but I have no time nor energy for your personal attacks. If you care to communicate as an adult than I will be happy to address you as such. Until then, you can sit in the corner and play with yourself.

                                  As for the others -

                                  Long lining and ground driving are indeed different. I start by long lining, with the off rein drawn over the back. I've heard people refer to this as double longing. As I said, this offers more control and a consistent feel on the lines. As the horse progresses and is more comfortable and consistent, I progress to ground driving from directly behind the horse with one line on each side. I'm sure each person does it their own way, and this is what has always worked very well for me and the horses.

                                  I have seen it done several different ways, of which have all been addressed here. I wouldn't refer to any one style as being incorrect, but merely different, and utilized for any number of reasons. I feel that working the horse in hand is good basics from which the horse can graduate to under saddle work. I have ALWAYS trained every one of our babies to long line and ground drive before ever getting in the saddle. I feel that it develops trust and confidence in the youngster.


                                  • #57
                                    WOW, I thought it was bad on the sporthorse board, but some of you guys speak terribly. I stopped in to see a little on the ground driving and was disappointed to see how some of you speak. Manners is a thing of the past, I'm afraid, No wonder our world is in such chaos when a simple discussion can turn so nasty.

                                    Going back to lurking and to teach my children about how to treat others with repect, no matter their opinion.

                                    added to say that I must be Canadian and we proud ourselves on politeness.


                                    • #58
                                      There are many different ways to approach driving/long lining, etc, but the proof is in the pudding as they say--if your method is achieving the desired results, then that's the right way to do it for your horse/pony.

                                      Someone asked for pictures. Here are some of our pony--you'll see that we chose not to have the lines down low; they are through the terrets and over the back. That's what worked best for him.

                                      October 2005 (first week of ground driving):




                                      January 2006 (long lining or double lunging):



                                      August 2006 (long lining or double lunging):





                                      • #59
                                        ...And here's Miss Penny P (taken earlier this evening) showing the world how NOT to do it - on several counts!

                                        I really hate using a saddle instead of a surcingle. "Why" should be obvious! Only reason I did it was b/c I had to sweeten the deal for my header-cum-Parelli "Leader" (see Off Course thread) in order to get the help... She wanted to ride Penny after we got through fooling with her and I didn't feel like trudging back up the hill to the barn for a tack change. (Yes, bad call on my part.)

                                        But - the good news: turns out Miss Penny Princess has no issues whatsoever about the offside line going around her quarters, once you are outside a stall. I had her headed while I flopped it up and down and around her back ankles, at one point, and she never flinched! So I'll be able to use the more correct position from now on.

                                        I snapped the pic when I had to stop her anyway to fix the offside rein. Sadly I have no pics of her in motion from this session - a green horse, two lines, a whip AND a digicam is beyond my skill level I'm afraid. But she did a lot better than I expected.

                                        As a redeeming factor (those visiting from the dressage board, please take note) I would ask that you compare her nice relaxed position in the above pic to her overbent and stressed frame when longed in side reins (taken a couple of months ago). This is why lots of us advocate long-lining over lunging in side reins.
                                        "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


                                        • #60
                                          you'll see that we chose not to have the lines down low; they are through the terrets and over the back
                                          Whether you put the lines through the terrets is determined by how tall you are in relation to the height of the pony. The aim being to have a direct line from your hand through the reins to the horse's mouth. You'll see in my photo long reining the shetland that I'm using the terret rings.