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Pro/Ammy question....

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  • Pro/Ammy question....

    Can't find the answer under USEF, so maybe somebody here knows offhand. I'm only referring to USEF rules...

    Being paid to drive makes you a pro.
    Being paid to groom does not.
    That much I've got figured out.

    Is a paid navigator still an ammy, or no??

  • #2
    I was not aware that there were amateur classes offered....not in CDE and their like anyway. Breed shows?

    Comment


    • #3
      Any ADS shows do not make the distinction between Ammy and Pro. Instead, for pleasure shows, there are maiden and novice classes. Once you win your way out of novice, you go in open which includes everybody that doesn't qualify for the novice classes.

      I don't know about breed specific shows, just open ADS shows.

      Christa P

      Comment


      • #4
        It doesn't matter whether there are Amateur driving classes- if it makes you a pro it makes you a pro for ALL desciplines.

        I THINK a paid navigator is still an amateur (as long as he/she NEVER "
        gives instruction, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools
        horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, " for which the person/entity which pays him/her "owns, boards or trains said horses.")
        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Jessica--

          If you are thinking of showing in driving or riding pleasure shows, I do not think that your navigating should come be an issue. You did not train a horse, nor did you accept money for training a horse. Having accepted dollars for navigating myself I felt the money was more a perdium for daily living--travel, lodging and food. I would bet yours was a similar arrangement. IN NO WAY is this a payment for training a horse nor does it make you a professional in the horse world.

          In Arabian breed showing, open is for professional horse trainers or riders. There are classes labelled "Amatuer Owner To Ride".

          Hope this clarifies you question. If I were to come up against this situation, I would not think twice about entering a amatuer class.

          Sue

          Comment


          • #6
            Well... Depends on what kind of driving you are doing and under which set of rules.

            Christa is correct - the ADS makes no distinction between ammy and pro. They distinguish among various skill levels instead.

            I'm not sure what the FEI does, if you're headed in that direction.

            Now, as to the USEF rules - depends on which breed/discipline you are competing in. USUALLY you are subject to the USEF General Rules regarding amateur status. BUT if your particular breed/discipline makes specific exceptions of any kind then I'm pretty sure that exception takes priority over the General Rules.

            I think on balance I'm gonna go with Janet - that if this is a USEF rated event, there does appear to be a loophole to keep your ammy status even if you are paid for gatoring. But if it's an ADS show, you can do whatever you want, so long as you don't do it with a judge less than 30 days prior to a show where s/he is judging you.
            "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
              Now, as to the USEF rules - depends on which breed/discipline you are competing in. USUALLY you are subject to the USEF General Rules regarding amateur status. BUT if your particular breed/discipline makes specific exceptions of any kind then I'm pretty sure that exception takes priority over the General Rules.
              To clarify,the discipline specific exceptions ONLY apply to THAT discipline. For instance, the Eventing rules provide for "up to $2500". (Going away in 2009.) So, if you make $100 riding or driving, you can still compete as an amateur in Eventing. But it doesn't carry over to any other discipline. You are "NO LONGER an amateur" for ALL the other disciplines

              I think on balance I'm gonna go with Janet - that if this is a USEF rated event, there does appear to be a loophole to keep your ammy status even if you are paid for gatoring. But if it's an ADS show, you can do whatever you want, so long as you don't do it with a judge less than 30 days prior to a show where s/he is judging you.
              But if you get "paid to drive" at an ADS show, you are no longer an amateur for USEF. It doesn't mattter whether the non-amateur activity happens at a USEF show, an ADS show, an unrecognized show, or at home.
              Janet

              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Actually, my question has little to do with driving. I also ride and show dressage.

                So what I'm really wondering is if I'm paid to navigate do I have to relinquish my ammy status with USEF, as this would affect my dressage shows. If I'm paid to DRIVE, then yes. If I'm paid to groom, then no. There is nothing about navigating though. I tend to lean more towards this being akin to grooming - at no point will I touch the reins of this horse, school him, etc. I'm not coaching the driver at all.

                I understand there are no pro/ammy separations at a CDE, but getting paid is getting paid and I'm still a USEF competitor in other rings Does my question make more sense now? I just want to make sure I'm within the rules in ALL disciplines!

                Cartfall - you're more on to where I'm headed, though I AM being paid to navigate. My travel, lodging and food is covered, and I'll be getting an additional stipend above that for my time navigating. But like you said, I'm not being paid to train the horse, so...?

                Janet - thanks, that's what I was thinking!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Janet View Post
                  But if you get "paid to drive" at an ADS show, you are no longer an amateur for USEF. It doesn't mattter whether the non-amateur activity happens at a USEF show, an ADS show, an unrecognized show, or at home.
                  I agree w/ the first part of your post but must respectfully disagree on this. If a CDE is ADS-rated but is NOT USEF rated, then USEF has no jurisdiction over what the drivers and grooms do at that event. (After all, how many times have we seen USEF play the "If it didn't happen on our show grounds during a show, we don't know about it and we don't want to" card?

                  Either way, Ironbess, Janet and I do both agree that you're PROBABLY safe as a paid gator. Might be worth an anonymous phone call to USEF though.

                  Edit, special to Janet: Dang, the $2500 exception in Eventing is going away? That stinks. I was hoping it would actually become a more widespread exception. Too many poor people trying to work off board in this bad economy could really use this kind of help.
                  "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
                    I agree w/ the first part of your post but must respectfully disagree on this. If a CDE is ADS-rated but is NOT USEF rated, then USEF has no jurisdiction over what the drivers and grooms do at that event. (After all, how many times have we seen USEF play the "If it didn't happen on our show grounds during a show, we don't know about it and we don't want to" card?
                    In general, that is true. But for amateur violations, what "happened at the show" is "so and so entered in an amateur class when they were not an amateur."

                    For instance (and this is taken verbaitm from the May 2008 Rules Compliance file)
                    MANUELA REYNOLDS of Middlebourne, WV, violated Chapter 8, GR808, GR809 and GR810; and
                    Chapter 7, GR702.1a and d of this Federation, in connection with the ERAHC Open Dressage Horse Show
                    held on August 23, 2007 and the ERAHC Classic Horse Show held on August 24-26, 2007, MANUELA
                    REYNOLDS, maintained amateur status and competed in amateur classes although she accepted
                    remuneration for training a horse in 2004 and 2005.
                    For these violations of the Rules, the Hearing
                    Committee members present directed that pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1b and GR703.1f MANUELA
                    REYNOLDS be found not in good standing, suspended from membership and forbidden from the privilege
                    of taking any part whatsoever in any Licensed Competition for one month, and is excluded from all
                    competition grounds (can not be on grounds from the time participants are admitted on the Competition
                    grounds until the last time for departure.
                    There is no indication that the "accepted
                    remuneration for training a horse in 2004 and 2005"
                    had anything to do with a USEF show- if it did they would have said so.
                    Janet

                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Right, BUT I think the key question is whether or not a protestable offense has been committed.

                      My take is that a gator accepting remuneration for gatoring at an ADS event (not subject to USEF rules, and where amateur status is not defined) who then goes to another discipline and competes USEF rated as an ammy is *not* committing a protestable offense.

                      This gator is in compliance with the ADS rules at the time s/he is competing ADS; s/he is also in compliance with USEF rules at the time she is competing USEF. USEF has no jurisdiction over ADS events where the event specifically states it's being run according to ADS rules. I think any attempt to protest would be struck down over the jurisdictional issue.

                      IMO, a more closely related fact scenario to compare it with would be, say, somebody leasing a Saddlebred and competing in amateur-owner Saddlebred classes (lessees are specifically permitted to compete as A/O's by Saddlebred rules), then buying a hunter and competing it A/O Hunter. This person would be in compliance with the Saddlebred rules when competing the ASB under Saddlebred rules (leases are legal) and would also be in compliance w/ the Amateur-Owner Hunter rules when competing the hunter (s/he owns it). No rules infraction has been committed here.

                      Sadly I can't spend any more time on this - I'm at work w/ no net access at home yet. Always an interesting debate though. It's really too bad there is not a universal rule across all disciplines about ammy status. Makes it very hard for the multidisciplinary folks!
                      "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Very few ADS shows have any distinction between pros and ammies, however, Walnut Hill and the Canadian Classic, before it ceased to be, both have an amateur championship. They just seemed to know who are the pros, their names go on the leaderboard in a different color....

                        Comment

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