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Horse kicking passenger while driving - You Tube video

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  • Horse kicking passenger while driving - You Tube video

    What is your take on this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0xnKnUOndI&NR=1

    I have never seen anything like this before; guess I just never thought about it. So is this rare in driving or has it ever happened to you?

    I found this video while looking at a video posted on the Off Course forum.
    No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

  • #2
    That same video has been posted and discussed here before, searching te driving forum for the word kick quickly found the old thread http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...highlight=kick

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      OK, sorry I missed it. I'll head back over to Off Course where we love to discuss the same thing over and over!
      No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

      Comment


      • #4
        Come visit anytime.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Gee, thanks and I was feeling unwelcome. Imagine that!

          Someone feeling unwelcome on the Driving forum!

          Seems we have had this discussion before perhaps some one can search and see if they find any threads about that in Driving.
          No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

          Comment


          • #6
            The exact thing had already been discussed at length and I linked you to the discussion.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Many things get discussed at length over and over again. Whether the poster just missed the thread or would like to open it up for discussion.

              I have posted about the wagon style in-line horse trailer before but found no need to dig up all the threads about it and post them. I added my comment to the new thread as I am sure you have done on other threads.

              Perhaps I mis-read your post but it seemed to me you just declared this topic all done.

              I would think I could spend the day in this forum searching the topics of all these threads and declaring them discussed. How come you don't do this in the other forums?
              No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

              Comment


              • #8
                MSP, luckily it hasn't happened to us or we wouldn't admit it if it had. Is shows very poor training and very poor safety practices. Both the horses and the people will probably not be driving again.
                As a whole, drivers are a cautious bunch. When a horse throws a rider, it is a loose horse. When a driver isn't in the carriage, it is a horse with a 350lb weapon attached.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Why don't you read the posts on the first topic on this subject and then ask questions if you have any rather than making people who have already weighed in on the subject repeat themself? There aren't as many regiualr posters in the driving section and sometimes you do see posts go unanswered because the same people get tired of typing the same things over and over again.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    MSP you are hunting for a fight - good lord you got a LINK to a lengrthy discussion and that makes you mad or unwelcome? sand in your cereal this morning or what?

                    I read here and never found it a 'mean' forum. Picky- but drivers need to be picky...umm, where's this strap go? oh, who knows, let's just leave it off..."

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by pricestory View Post
                      MSP, luckily it hasn't happened to us or we wouldn't admit it if it had. Is shows very poor training and very poor safety practices. Both the horses and the people will probably not be driving again.
                      As a whole, drivers are a cautious bunch. When a horse throws a rider, it is a loose horse. When a driver isn't in the carriage, it is a horse with a 350lb weapon attached.
                      Thanks for commenting! It bothers me a little that you don't think anyone would comment if it had happened to them and that it only can happen as a result of poor training or safety. I have seen all levels of trained horses freak unexpectedly over the years and wouldn't necessarily blame the trainer or handler for it.

                      I believe My sparrow posted on the other thread that the driver did in deed drive this horse again successfully.

                      I found the video very disturbing to the point of questioning whether I really want to ever drive my filly given her nature.
                      No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by katarine View Post
                        MSP you are hunting for a fight - good lord you got a LINK to a lengrthy discussion and that makes you mad or unwelcome? sand in your cereal this morning or what?

                        I read here and never found it a 'mean' forum. Picky- but drivers need to be picky...umm, where's this strap go? oh, who knows, let's just leave it off..."
                        Thanks! No I am not looking for a fight but I did asks some different questions about the video that was not addressed in the other thread. I think that many of the posters in the driving forum tend to have the same perspective on things and many times it is highly elevated. A lengthy thread? That thread was 14 post and one page long hardly lengthy by COTH standards.

                        Posters with out expert opinion are some times passed over. For example on the linked thread there was a poster that commented they had a similar experience while driving. So how do you think that poster felt based on these comments? MIdeafhorserider hasn't been back to the COTH since posting on that thread.

                        I just find it amazing that the folks that train horses and drive every day for years have never had this happen to them. What no learning curve on driving? Horses once trained properly to drive never act badly , never spook and never do anything wrong unless a person makes them.

                        What I wanted to know was yeah this can happen if you don't do this or this. Or yeah this can happen but if you do your home work it is very unlikely.


                        Here is an example: I sent my filly to a trainer to be started under saddle. He says "if I do my home work she won't buck, some do but if prepared properly the majority don't". Now my filly's breeder sent a gelding off to him to be started. He started him the same way as my filly but he bucked and he took longer to get started. And even after two months with the trainer while on a trail ride he was startled by a deer and he reacted by bucking violently. He threw the trainer and the trainer at that point kind of gave up on the horse. Now I don't think he could train the horse any differently that would have prevented the horse from bucking. The horse has some issues and perhaps if he gets a lot of time in the saddle can work out of it. The point here is it can happen but probably doesn't happen too often.

                        If this horse was being trained to drive what would have been any different?
                        No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Whoa, guys, whoa. MSP is a friend of mine and I did think our response to her was terse to the point of being unwelcoming. Back down. She asked a legitimate question and deserves a friendly response. MSP is a longtime driver and owns the oldest, most beautiful, youngest-looking 35-year-old horse I've ever seen, an OTB SB. She drove him till he retired. She knows her stuff and has things to share.

                          That was a pretty disturbing video. I revisited it when MSP posted the link. Yikes. No wonder we all get tetchy around it, eh? It's actually the driver who got kicked, not the passenger. A miracle that he survived!

                          Enjoy this beautiful day! You're always welcome here, MSP!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not sure where the entrenched positions on both sides of the should we re-discuss this here are coming from (this group also discuss the same thing over again and sometimes get new input). But that's not productive conversation, so lets move on to your question, which seems to be whether this is a common occurance and whether a horse with a tendency to buck and/or kick can be trained to drive with more training?

                            This is not a common occurance though it does happen from time to time.

                            While I guess you could try training the horse through a tendency to buck/kick, but I probably wouldn't. Horses that respond to new input by bucking and kicking are not usually considered good candidates for driving. IMHO there would have to be a real good reason for me to want to get behind a horse that commonly kicks and bucks in a carriage.

                            If you DID decide to work through it with an experienced trainer, hopefully you can solve the issue during ground work or while working as a single with a kicking strap. As Price said, its just too easy for things to escalate when you add in the carriage so we try to avoid the problem in the first place where possible.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by MySparrow View Post
                              Whoa, guys, whoa. MSP is a friend of mine and I did think our response to her was terse to the point of being unwelcoming. Back down. She asked a legitimate question and deserves a friendly response. MSP is a longtime driver and owns the oldest, most beautiful, youngest-looking 35-year-old horse I've ever seen, an OTB SB. She drove him till he retired. She knows her stuff and has things to share.

                              That was a pretty disturbing video. I revisited it when MSP posted the link. Yikes. No wonder we all get tetchy around it, eh? It's actually the driver who got kicked, not the passenger. A miracle that he survived!

                              Enjoy this beautiful day! You're always welcome here, MSP!
                              Playing referee again! I seem to get into trouble when I post out here.

                              This video kind of makes me look at driving in a new way and not a good one. I really am having a hard time; thinking that if the right button was pressed any horse could react this way.

                              If I had seen this video when I was 14 I probably never would have taken that first drive! I trusted Ace 100% and couldn't imagine him doing this but I have seen him kick, Ive been on him when he spooked and spun me off like a bull; so I started thinking any horse is capable of this. Then I thought about my independent minded little cow horse who kicks every time I tack her up. Hmm, maybe I will pass on driving her!
                              No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                This all brings up another point but I will submit it as another thread "Why driving horses stand" and others (event horses) don't.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Drive NJ View Post
                                  Not sure where the entrenched positions on both sides of the should we re-discuss this here are coming from (this group also discuss the same thing over again and sometimes get new input). But that's not productive conversation, so lets move on to your question, which seems to be whether this is a common occurance and whether a horse with a tendency to buck and/or kick can be trained to drive with more training?

                                  This is not a common occurance though it does happen from time to time.

                                  While I guess you could try training the horse through a tendency to buck/kick, but I probably wouldn't. Horses that respond to new input by bucking and kicking are not usually considered good candidates for driving. IMHO there would have to be a real good reason for me to want to get behind a horse that commonly kicks and bucks in a carriage.

                                  If you DID decide to work through it with an experienced trainer, hopefully you can solve the issue during ground work or while working as a single with a kicking strap. As Price said, its just too easy for things to escalate when you add in the carriage so we try to avoid the problem in the first place where possible.
                                  I did a little googling based on your last paragraph; wondering if many do this. I found two farm sites with kicking stories and mention of the kick strap.

                                  http://www.bowersfarm.com/articl02.html

                                  http://www.axwoodfarm.com/Library.php?inc=14

                                  Then this mini cart popped up although I don't see how it affords much protection from kicking.

                                  http://cgi.ebay.com/Orange-Miniature...QQcmdZViewItem
                                  No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Drive NJ View Post
                                    This is not a common occurance though it does happen from time to time.

                                    While I guess you could try training the horse through a tendency to buck/kick, but I probably wouldn't. Horses that respond to new input by bucking and kicking are not usually considered good candidates for driving. IMHO there would have to be a real good reason for me to want to get behind a horse that commonly kicks and bucks in a carriage.

                                    If you DID decide to work through it with an experienced trainer, hopefully you can solve the issue during ground work or while working as a single with a kicking strap. As Price said, its just too easy for things to escalate when you add in the carriage so we try to avoid the problem in the first place where possible.

                                    MSP, are you planning to drive a Pair? The horse shown in the video is in a Pair, not used as a Single. There are options for Singles, that Pairs can't use.

                                    DNJ metions the kicking strap above, very popular with folks starting single horses, under the theory that horse is unrewarded if he can't kick, so he quits. Kicking strap helps prevent horse from learning how to kick with cart, so he can't revert to this behaviour later. He never damages cart kicking, doesn't hurt him self either, is better able to go thru learning stages unharmed. Those concerned with Driving safety in all situations, use kicking straps daily. They make a kicking strap part of their regular equipment in all driving outings.

                                    I can see their reasoning, would not look down on those who use the strap. Better to be safe than sorry, EVER. We have a kicking strap, but it is expected to be used, then eventually left off. An aid whose time comes and goes, in our expectations of a driving horse.

                                    We go along with DNJ, endeavor to choose horses that do not react to situations with panic. Also horses that do not get angry, lash out when things make them unhappy. Innate things on individual horses are seldom changed, like kick reactions if startled or angry.

                                    We work very hard when testing new horses to purchase. Try all the tests, ideas we know, to get into his head in short times of "looking at him". None of the horses we find are EVER close to home, so one visit is all you get. This is after we have already evaluated horse for size, color, stride, temperment, skills, with previews on video footage. Husband has a good feel for a horse that suits him. The driving failures were still very nice horses, but not going to work for us or our wants. Some just DON'T want to drive. You have to recognize the difference between a training step with problems, and a problem with horse who is not liking the work.

                                    We drive multiples, so we can NOT have ANY P***Y attitude by the horse. No crabby days allowed, for any reason. I find it hard to believe the video horse kicked for the first time that day. He had to have given clues about kicking problem before, but no one listened or fixed the situation. I am afraid we would be rather harsh with a horse who got light behind in the Multiples, gave ANY CLUES that he would be kicking after he had previously been just fine in training.

                                    We sold a horse who was unreliable in harness. We never got him hitched to a cart. He is flawless under saddle, NEVER picks up a foot to argue. He did not like driving, objected strongly when you didn't expect it. He didn't care about harness, straps between his legs, pulling weight, noise. He just would say "I'm done" and you could do nothing about it. Sure not worth the effort to MAKE him drive. That thinking will hurt or kill you.

                                    We sold him on to a girl who loves him, he likes her a lot too. Make a great riding pair. He passed all our driving tests with flying colors when we tried him out as a prospect. There is just something inside him that didn't want to drive. We have his 1/2 brother, a SUPERB driving horse who is also a good riding horse. Blood helps, but each horse is an individual. Our mare pair came from a stallion who drove well. However we went thru 4 of his fillies to get 2 who drove well. One went on to do Dressage, the other Evented, both did very well in their fields of skill. Neither wanted to drive, said so LOUD.

                                    I have to trust our horse to keep his brain screwed in, react to his extensive basic training and conditioning in all situations. I may have to hop down, fix a problem between a Pair or the 4. Can't have one kicking me to pieces in there. Or even thinking he MIGHT be touchy, kicky, while I work between them. SCARY thought. May happen on a CDE Hazard or even a Pleasure drive or picnic. We are hard in asking our horses for a lot. We give them great basics, try to have them accepting of all things we may ask of him. He needs to follow directions, stand and wait, step over, because he is trained that way. "YES BOSS". We expect obedience of him EVERY TIME WE ASK, nothing less is acceptable. Bad things happen when you start accepting less obedience from horse in any situation.

                                    I would not want any horse in front of me who was "forced" to learn driving or iffy in his driving skills.

                                    Driving is a place you can't be sentimental about the horse's feelings, reactions. You have to be clear eyed in evaluating a Driving prospect, decide what you can live with in him or not. Every horse has some holes, some are acceptable, others make him wash out of our program. The Driving horse has to be much more trained, accepting of all sorts of odd things, than the riding horse does, to be just a GOOD Driving horse. The really EXCELLENT Driving horses are marvelous.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Man. I didn't see the old thread and would never have thought to search for 'kicking cart horse'. <lol> So... thanks, MSP for the link to this video.

                                      It is really awful to watch - those kicks sound like gunshots. Would that be her hitting the wooden cart? Not to mentio the driver's face and it seems the passenger's arms/hands.

                                      Poor second horse is just standing there going, "What????"


                                      I understand what DriveNJ means by a horse who has a tendency to buck/kick to new (unpleasant/scary) stimuli. While any horse can and will buck or kick... some horses just have it in their nature as First Line of Defense. Some will run. Some will rear. Others run backwards.

                                      It would seem that the ones who spook/startle-in-place and/or stop-and-stare are better suited to a life in the traces. sylvia
                                      Never explain yourself to someone who is committed to misunderstanding you.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        MSP said "Then I thought about my independent minded little cow horse who kicks every time I tack her up. Hmm, maybe I will pass on driving her!"

                                        Your instincts are good here. I would agree she's not an ideal candidate for a driving horse. As Goodhorse points out a lot of horses scrub out of driving and some more probably should. Some folks can get iffy horses to drive, but its likely they will never be that steady horse.

                                        Comment

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