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USEF needs your feedback...*link*

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  • USEF needs your feedback...*link*

    PLEASE let the Dressage Committee of the USEF know how you feel about the Performance Standard Proposal: This will be voted on next month.

    http://www.usef.org/contentpage2.aspx?id=committee

    Committee list
    scroll down to "Breeds and Disciplines"
    click on "Dressage Committee"

    You can email the committee with your feedback.

    I noticed Melissa Creswick info was not included. Here is her email address:

    dressagejdg@aol.com


    USEF Dressage Committee presents
    their Performance Standard Proposal
    Qualifying to Move up the Levels
    This proposed Rule Change will be voted on at the USEF Annual Meeting in January. If you wish to give them input, please email any or all of the USEF Dressage Committee and give them your ideas. The Rule Change Proposal Reads: RIDERS COMPETING IN DRESSAGE COMPETITIONS AT THIRD LEVEL AND ABOVE MUST BE ELIGIBLE ACCORDING TO THE QUALIFICATION CRITERIA ESTABLISHED BY THE FEDERATION DRESSAGE COMMITTEE. EFFECTIVE DEC. 1, 2009.

    USEF Committee Members
    marianne ludwig
    anne gribbons
    george williams
    jayne ayers
    sam barish
    kathy connelly
    melissa creswick
    jan ebeling
    janet brown foy
    lisa gorretta
    lendon gray
    hilda gurney
    scott hassler
    carol lavell
    janine malone
    debbie mcdonald
    axel steiner
    elizabeth williams
    linda zang
    Last edited by Sunny Santa Cruz; Dec. 8, 2007, 01:44 AM.

  • #2
    ty bumpity bump
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
    Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
    Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB

    Comment


    • #3
      yes, I just got the email from CDS about about USEF proposal for Performance Standard. ******************
      California Dressage Society Members please read

      USEF Dressage Committee presents
      their Performance Standard Proposal
      Qualifying to Move up the Levels
      This proposed Rule Change will be voted on at the USEF Annual Meeting in January. If you wish to give them input, please email any or all of the USEF Dressage Committee and give them your ideas. The Rule Change Proposal Reads: RIDERS COMPETING IN DRESSAGE COMPETITIONS AT THIRD LEVEL AND ABOVE MUST BE ELIGIBLE ACCORDING TO THE QUALIFICATION CRITERIA ESTABLISHED BY THE FEDERATION DRESSAGE COMMITTEE. EFFECTIVE DEC. 1, 2009.

      USEF Committee Members
      marianne ludwig
      anne gribbons
      george williams
      jayne ayers
      sam barish
      kathy connelly
      melissa creswick
      jan ebeling
      janet brown foy
      lisa gorretta
      lendon gray
      hilda gurney
      scott hassler
      carol lavell
      janine malone
      debbie mcdonald
      axel steiner
      elizabeth williams
      linda zang

      Suggested criteria:PERFORMANCE STANDARDS PROPOSAL
      Revised 8/3/07
      After gathering comments and feedback for several years from officials and exhibitors, the USEF Dressage Committee would like to implement a system of rider qualification through the dressage levels called "Performance Standards". This system, inspired by existing European models, would only apply for riders competing at Third Level and above beginning with the 2010 competition year. The mission of Performance Standards is to fully prepare riders with positive competitive experiences in order to be able to successfully move up the levels, while supporting the welfare of the horse.
      The Levels will be named:
      Training - Second: BASIC
      Third/Fourth: MEDIUM
      Prix St. Georges/Intermediare I: ADVANCED
      Intermediare II/Grand Prix: INTERNATIONAL An Asterisk (*) will be added to denote a foreign rider.

      POINTS:
      *There will be no negative points
      60% - 62.99% One Point
      63% - 65.99% Two Points
      66% - 68.99% Three Points
      69.00% & above Four Points
      Points will be earned at USEF/USDF or FEI recognized competitions. Points can not be earned in dressage classes, sections or divisions in USEF Regular Competitions (restricted breed competitions). Freestyle scores and FEI Young Horse Tests do not count towards points. Any test of the level may be used to accumulate points. FEI tests (junior, young rider etc) can accumulate points as 'equivalent' national levels. These equivalent levels are shown on a chart in the USEF rule book DR 119.2. At least two rides must be of the highest test of the level. These points will track with the rider, not with the horse. Once the rider has earned a designation, it will be permanent. There will be no need to re-qualify.

      This system does not apply to dressage classes, sections or divisions in regular competitions. (In other words there are no qualifying requirements to show at breed shows in dressage divisions).

      Riders may enter any USEF Training, First or Second Level class at a recognized competition without any qualifying points. Riders may also ride the following FEI Tests at recognized competitions without any qualifying point: FEI Pony, USEF Four-Year-Old, FEI Five-Year-Old, and the FEI Six-Year-Old tests.

      You may move up in the middle of the season, once the scores are verified by USDF. You may not move up in the middle of a show.

      In order for qualifying points to be recorded, the rider must be a USDF Participating Member and a USEF Member at the time the points are earned. Membership blanks are available from USDF (location) and USEF (location). Verification of membership (membership numbers and cards) from USEF/USDF must be received by the rider before points may be accumulated.

      If the rider has been 'grandfathered' into the system and plans to ride Third Level or above at a recognized show (USDF, USEF or FEI), they must be a USDF Participating Member and a USEF Member in order to compete at those levels.

      The following system will apply for recognized competitions:

      Training, First, Second Level: NO QUALIFYING NEEDED (BASIC LEVEL)

      To move from Second Level to Third/Fourth Level: (MEDIUM LEVEL) A rider will need 20 points from three different USEF judges. A panel (of two or more) will count as ONE judge. There will be no limit on points a rider can receive from any panel of 2, 3 or 5 judges. At least two of the tests used for points must be from Second Level Test Four. The remainder of the points may be from any Second Level test.

      To move from Third/Fourth Level to Prix St. Georges/Intermediaire I: (ADVANCED LEVEL) A rider will need 10 points from THREE different USEF judges. Same rule for panels as above. At least two of the tests used for points must be from Fourth Level Test Three. The remainder of the points may be from either Third or Fourth Level Tests.

      To move from Prix St. Georges/Intermediare I to Intermediaire II/Grand Prix: (INTERNATIONAL LEVEL) A rider will need 8 points from THREE different USEF/FEI judges. Same rule for panels as above. At least two of the tests used for points must be from Intermediaire I. The remainder of the points may be from Prix St. Georges.
      ONLY FEI Juniors, FEI Young Riders, Brentina Cup riders, and Developing Horse Riders who are entering U.S. National Championship or NAJYRC QUALIFYING shows are exempt from qualifying to compete.

      FOREIGN RIDERS: May qualify using the USEF System as long as membership requirements are met. Or, the rider may prove competition ability with a letter from their National Federation. This proof must be submitted to Jennifer Keeler at USEF.

      GRANDFATHERING:
      1. If you have appeared on a long list form 1999-Nov. 30, 2009 with USET/USEF you will be allowed to compete at any level
      2. If you have competed at the festival of Champions from 19856 to Nov. 30. 2009 you will be allowed to compete at any level
      3. USDF Bronze Medal winners from 1974 to Nov. 30, 2009 will be allowed to compete at the MEDIUM level
      4. USDF Silver Medal winners from 1974 to Nov. 30, 2009 will be allowed to compete at the ADVANCED level and below.
      5. USDF Gold Medal winners from 1974 to Nov. 30, 2009 will be allowed to compete at the INTERNATIONAL level and below.
      6. Active USEF judges (listed in the USEF judges roster as of Nov. 30, 2009) will be grandfathered as follows:
      *"r" Dressage Judges may compete at the MEDIUM LEVEL
      *"R" Dressage Judges may compete at the ADVANCED LEVEL
      *"S" Dressage Judges may compete at the INTERNATIONAL LEVEL and below

      NOTE: Grandfathering is a one-time exemption and will end Nov. 30, 2009

      APPEALS PROCESS:
      In the case of an eligibility dispute with a rider, a committee will be formed from the following committees: Three members of the USEF Technical Dressage Committee and Two members of the USEF High Performance Dressage Committee. The members of this committee shall be appointed by the respective Chairs of the two committees. There shall be two members (one from each committee) appointed as alternates in the case of a conflict of interest. These members shall meet when necessary via teleconference. A member of the USDF staff shall also be on the call. Paper proof of eligibility via records (copies of tests, medal certificates etc.) must be submitted from the rider to the committee.

      USEF/USDF Membership cards will carry the rider's designation. This designation will only be available on USDF/USEF websites.

      TIMELINE:

      *January 2008: Rule changes approved at USEF Annual Meeting

      *February through April 2008: Development of USEF/USDF Business Plan and Grandfathering Process
      1. USEF/USDF Business Plan is developed to identify and formalize the responsibilities of both organizations.
      2. Grandfathered riders are flagged in the USDF database. Grandfathered list is received from USEF along with member numbers and a matching up of these riders and flagging in the USDF database is performed both electronically and manually, as necessary.

      *May through September 2008: USDF Coding and Programming, Public Relations Campaign Development
      1. Coding and programming for this project will take approximately 3-4 months based on current workload and projects. Since this will affect the USDF website, USEF data exchange, and USDF's main working database, this will require on-going monitoring during the programming phase to ensure that normal services and functions are not affected by the additional programming.
      2. Public relations and marketing strategies will have to be developed with USDF and USEF in order to ensure that all effected riders are aware of this requirement.

      *October 2008: Begin implementation
      1. Pilot run through, testing and debugging
      2. Introduction of verification process of public and public relations plan implementation

      *December 2008: Begin one year of "voluntary compliance"

      *December 2009: Plan goes into effect at start of 2010 Competition Year
      sted in the facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Is it kosher to post the email addresses of the people on the committee? I extracted them from the CDS email.

        USEF Committee Members
        marianne ludwig [jmludwig@ix.netcom.com]
        anne gribbons [agribbons@aol.com]
        george williams [georomwn@aol.com]
        jayne ayers [jayne@dressagehorse.com]
        sam barish [sam.barish@science.doe.gov]
        kathy connelly [kathyconnellyavf@aol.com]
        melissa creswick [dresagejdg@aol.com]
        jan ebeling [acresrnch@aol.com]
        janet brown foy [dressagejanet@att.net]
        lisa gorretta [lisa@paddocksaddlery.com]
        lendon gray [graydressage@optonline.net]
        hilda gurney [hildagurney@prodigy.net]
        scott hassler [info@hasslerdressage.com]
        carol lavell [lavellcarol@aol.com]
        janine malone [jemrph@aol.com]
        debbie mcdonald [dressagemc@aol.com]
        axel steiner [axsteiner@aol.com]
        elizabeth williams [lizyh@aol.com]
        linda zang [idlewilde@aol.com]
        The Evil Chem Prof

        Comment


        • #5
          I think each person who cares about this proposal might do as Rebecca Yount has suggested-- put together something you can put into the hands of someone ATTENDING the USEF Convention.

          because it is my understanding (and PLEASE someone correct me if this is wrong) that the way proposals get passed at Convention is-- everyone entitled to a vote says Yes/No.

          Which means--a proposal brought by THE committee to the rest of THE convention almost always gets passed. Hunter-jumper people etc just figure--oh, the Dressage committee wants this? Yah, sure why not.

          I do not like the proposal for reasons that have been stated and re-stated.

          BUT even more --I do not like the Dressage Committee trying to take over the direction of dressage.

          Heretofore, proposals have been about lengths of whips, styles of dress: concrete specific rules and regulations.

          THIS proposal has to do with the way we all compete, the future and structure of dressage,etc.

          I do not believe this is the province of any committee.


          Sure: we all know that this proposal is going to be rather difficult (read: very expensive) to actually carry out...BUT, if it gets passed, the possibility of execution is a lot more likely than if it simply gets quashed.

          So...I'm already checking around to see who might be going to USEF Convention--and I am going to print out the emails and hand them as a packet.

          This is supposed to be OUR organization (hey! I can hear you out there, laughing !).
          Last edited by canyonoak; Dec. 8, 2007, 11:14 AM.
          one oak, lots of canyons

          http://horsesportnews.wordpress.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            This has me utterly confused! Say I have never shown, I buy this amazing Grand Prix dressage horse that by some grace of God I can ride like a dream. This proposal tells me I am not allowed to go out and show this horse say at psg if I have not "earned" my right there?

            Call me stupid, but why would anybody want to pass a proposal that governs what level they can show at? What benefit comes of this?
            Mountain View Farm
            Diva 5-7-07, Dolce 5-19-08, Devo 6-10-09

            When handling yourself....use your head. When handling your horse....use your heart!<3

            Comment


            • #7
              While I do think there are a small minority of people moving up who shouldn't... it's their money. They want to throw it away showing above their ability... let'em
              What benefit comes of this?
              IMO, entry fees. I am supposed to show at somewhere between 5 and 20 recognized shows to move up? There are exactly FOUR A YEAR within 4 hours' travel of me. Yeah, with gas at $3.30 a gallon, I'm going to haul five to seven hours or more to get my points... I have shown exactly once at First Level, and hope to be SHOWIN 2nd and moving into 3rd next year. I might be able to get to four shows the entire year. I don't compete much, but it is the 'proof in the putting' for us. There ARE no upper level schooling shows up here. Once you're 2nd or above, it's the real deal. This proposal will pretty much lock me in to medium level without any hope of ever getting out of it. What do they get out of it? Five to Twenty show entry fees for someone looking to move up. That's probably 15-18 more than I would ever plan.
              InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

              Comment


              • #8
                Most countries with a strong history of dressage have some kind of system in place: need X scores to move up and get certification before you do. Also double is used on 2nd levels and up.

                US are quite different. We do have a USDF Medals, but they are not for moving up the levels, just for the show. We have a double on 3rd or 4th level.

                So often I hear that dressage in US is not as good as in Europe. I guess, dressage committee is trying to bring the European system to US in hopes of bringing the standards of dressage up.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dressage Art View Post
                  So often I hear that dressage in US is not as good as in Europe. I guess, dressage committee is trying to bring the European system to US in hopes of bringing the standards of dressage up.
                  Don't you think we are going about it backwards?

                  Shouldn't we start with some sort of standardized system for TRAINING first? That's the major difference between here and Europe - their trainers all have to go through the same program (within each country, at least), here anyone can hang up a shingle and call themselves a pro.

                  If you fix the TRAINING first, the showing should take care of itself.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by yaya View Post
                    Don't you think we are going about it backwards?

                    Shouldn't we start with some sort of standardized system for TRAINING first? That's the major difference between here and Europe - their trainers all have to go through the same program (within each country, at least), here anyone can hang up a shingle and call themselves a pro.

                    If you fix the TRAINING first, the showing should take care of itself.
                    BINGO!
                    Mountain View Farm
                    Diva 5-7-07, Dolce 5-19-08, Devo 6-10-09

                    When handling yourself....use your head. When handling your horse....use your heart!<3

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      IMO, the biggest difference between here and europe is that in the US, most people ride western and learned how to ride without lessons. In Europe, most people ride english, and started riding within a system. These rules aren't going to change that.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by canyonoak View Post
                        I think each person who cares about this proposal might do as Rebecca Yount has suggested-- put together something you can put into the hands of someone ATTENDING the USEF Convention.
                        because it is my understanding (and PLEASE someone correct me if this is wrong) that the way proposals get passed at Convention is-- everyone entitled to a vote says Yes/No.
                        Canyonoak, Ellie K popped in to a discussion over on TOB. I may be misunderstanding but, only the USEF BOD/ExComm gets to vote?

                        Also, would it be possible to bring in support from the Eventing discipline?
                        This proposal WILL have a big effect on Advanced Level eventers who do 3rd Level dressage shows to prep for their season...

                        Originally posted by Ellie K
                        "voting and rule-making authority rests solely with the Board of Directors/ExComm, per the USEF bylaws. In order to have open membership voting on a rule change, you would first have to get the bylaws changed.

                        It is ironic that when you compare the fundamental structures of the FEI, the USEF, and the USDF, the FEI is BY FAR the most democratic of the three, lol. USDF comes in the middle, and USEF brings up the rear, by a longshot."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I don't see how the USDF is not democratic? The changes are all voted in by delegates elected to their positions in one fashion or another. The regional directors are also elected. Unfortunately the people willing to step into their positions are few and far between, and they generally run unopposed. But it is as democratic as any other organization that I've seen.

                          But this concept has been discussed for so long, and while maybe the qualifying system wasn't discussed as in depth as what is coming out now, even as early as last year, they were discussing the 'grandfathering' of people with medals, etc. And honestly, until this year, I NEVER heard a single voice opposed to this proposition. People sat in the Forums and Meetings and said..."Oh what a great idea".

                          So if it wasn't an issue then, why now, when it comes to fruition isn't it an issue? Are the regions not making their members aware enough of what is going on?

                          While all the negative issues regarding this rule change have been pointed out, things like trainers who lie about their experiences, or riders who can't sit the trot buying fancy horses and trying to show them at the FEI levels simply because they have the bucks would be eliminated. People would have to gain the experience, before attempting to show the higher levels, and they would have to demonstrate the basics prior to cantering down the center line.

                          Getting a forty isn't a deterrent for some people. I knew of one woman who bought her FEI schoolmaster, and showed him at fourth and St George's for years, scoring in the forties. Being told OPENLY by judges that this is WRONG. What else are the judges supposed to do? I saw them do everything SHORT of slapping the woman upside the head with the letter C. By the time this woman was done with her horse, he was sway backed, sore behind, and very sad looking.

                          The judges can't do it all. Not with our liberal and all to eagerly litigious society.

                          PS. David O'Connor is an eventer. He is also president of the USEF, which would make him a member of the Dressage Committee. I am sure he is well aware of the situation and how it effects the Eventing world. What better voice could you ask to represent you?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Please Read the Actual Wording of the Proposed Rule

                            Someone on TOB pointed out something that should be very seriously considered in approving this new rule proposal to pass.

                            Please read the actual wording of "Proposed Rule 3." to be voted on by the USEF BOD/ExComm.

                            Originally posted by TOB
                            "although the info above is being promulgated to CDS members, the official statement of the proposed rule 275-07 makes no mention of ANY of this stuff (specifics of the qualification rule)

                            The current proposed rule as listed on USEF web site:
                            Proposed Change:
                            DR119 Participation in Dressage Competitions. [Chapter DR. Dressage Division] Add new and renumber remaining:

                            3. Effective December 1, 2009, riders competing in Dressage Competitions at Third Level and above must be eligible according to
                            qualification criteria established by the Federation Dressage Committee.

                            http://www.usef.org/documents/.....275-07.pdf

                            So if this rule gets approved, anything can be done after the fact. "
                            In other words, all the "qualification" details are NOT included in the Rule, the Rule simply enables and enpowers the Federation Dressage Committee to establish whatever qualification criteria...
                            Last edited by claire; Dec. 8, 2007, 05:22 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I can't get to the committee section of the website - I click on breeds & disciplines, dressage and can't find committees anywhere. I tried searching the site and got a google response of 4billion hits of dressage and committee.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                It's hard to find.

                                You have to click on "About USEF", then "About Us", then "Committee List", then click on "Dressage Committee" (it's under "Breeds & Disciplines Committees"

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by DontTellMama View Post
                                  But this concept has been discussed for so long, and while maybe the qualifying system wasn't discussed as in depth as what is coming out now, even as early as last year, they were discussing the 'grandfathering' of people with medals, etc. And honestly, until this year, I NEVER heard a single voice opposed to this proposition. People sat in the Forums and Meetings and said..."Oh what a great idea".
                                  Who is "they"? Where did they present this to the general public as opposed to talking amongst themselves? I heard about it 2 years ago, and so did alot of people. But that was all word of mouth and it was "talk". Please tell me how many people sat in Forums and meetings versus how many people are members of of USEF dressage? Please reference the publication of this idea prior to the recent publication.

                                  Originally posted by DontTellMama View Post
                                  So if it wasn't an issue then, why now, when it comes to fruition isn't it an issue? Are the regions not making their members aware enough of what is going on? While all the negative issues regarding this rule change have been pointed out, things like trainers who lie about their experiences, or riders who can't sit the trot buying fancy horses and trying to show them at the FEI levels simply because they have the bucks would be eliminated. People would have to gain the experience, before attempting to show the higher levels, and they would have to demonstrate the basics prior to cantering down the center line.
                                  No, they would not be eliminated. Trainers who lie about their experience will continue to lie...because they LIE. Already their scores are public record. Relatively decent riders bouncing the trot on an FEI horse will still make it through the test on the horse's gaits. We've all seen this. I already pay alot of money to demonstrate my basics to my trainer and clinicians, and get objective feedback a couple of times per year from a judge. This plan makes sense.

                                  Originally posted by DontTellMama View Post
                                  Getting a forty isn't a deterrent for some people. I knew of one woman who bought her FEI schoolmaster, and showed him at fourth and St George's for years, scoring in the forties. Being told OPENLY by judges that this is WRONG. What else are the judges supposed to do? I saw them do everything SHORT of slapping the woman upside the head with the letter C. By the time this woman was done with her horse, he was sway backed, sore behind, and very sad looking.
                                  An anecdotal story of one woman happy with getting forties pales in comparison to the mean reality of the membership. For every one story I hear, I have ten about responsible people who are prepared to go down centerline. The judges did the extent of their job. Period. Swaybacked, sore behind and sad? Please. I'm sure he has better health insurance and nutrition than most americans. I'm sure he has a massage therapist, a chiropractor and a groom, too, if the woman can afford to buy a FEI schoolmaster.

                                  Originally posted by DontTellMama View Post
                                  The judges can't do it all. Not with our liberal and all to eagerly litigious society.
                                  The judges can do it all because their responsibilities are VERY WELL OUTLINED! Watch the ride. Score it. Be honest. It really is that simple. If someone is going to sue a judge over a bad score (oh please!), then someone is going to sue USEF for obstructing their ability to show at the level they've paid money in training/boarding, etc to show at.

                                  J.

                                  PS. Dressage Art. Do you honestly think that what makes Germany great is the fact that they have a qualifying system? Europe has centuries of dressage training, dressage philosophy development, and sport horse breeding. We don't. I don't think a qualifying system will the average american on par with the average german for a long, long time. Quality riding schools for kids and adults where instructors are very qualified and the school horses are really good and you spend your formative years on a longe line.... now that might help balance the equation.
                                  Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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                                  • #18
                                    THANK YOU for posting the contact information on this thread!!
                                    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Ja Da Dee View Post
                                      IMO, the biggest difference between here and europe is that in the US, most people ride western and learned how to ride without lessons.

                                      What reality do you live in? It certainly isn't mine, or that of people I know who have made their way into dressage and up the levels. A ton of people in the US have never even put their backside in a western saddle. Instead, they learned to ride some form of english style--including dressage.

                                      It sounds like you're from Europe. They tend to make those bizarre assumptions about Americans. We are not backwards, nor are we all cowboys that "learnt that thar dressage-thing in that bitty little saddle because it looked easy."

                                      I don't know if you meant it the way I just took it, but that's really a terrible misconception and assumption. The reality is that we just have fewer qualified instructors, top notch school horses to learn from, and our opportunities to learn and watch the best are few and far between (if not non-existant).

                                      The issue is the size of this country, more than anything else. Not that people start out riding in a western saddle and play cowgirl (or boy, as the case may be).

                                      I will, however, agree that the system here is broken. And that the current program that the USDF has implemented to fix the problem (the instructor certification) is a joke and won't change anything. The elites that make the rules need to all go out and get jobs in business and learn what it takes to actually make positive changes. Using horse people to create a solid plan for improvement and growth is simply the blind leading the visually challenged.
                                      "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

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                                      • #20
                                        Sunny SAnta Cruz and Dressage ARt, are either of you members of the committee? I think it is absolutely outstanding that you posted this, but I'm also curious as to whether the posting was "sanctioned" by the USDF...which is not written to imply something bad at all, but rather something good--excellent, even.

                                        I've always wondered why critical rulemaking decisions like this haven't been posted by the various organizations so that the general membership can hash them out and be heard. With so many minds at work on such things, one would think that the result would be, if not something that made everyone happy, at least something that had been very, very thoroughly thought through by many different perspectives.

                                        This BB is such an excellent resource, even if it might not be absolutely "representative" of the entire membership of various organizations. So, please, I can't tell from your profiles--was this your idea or that of the committee? And kudos to you for posting it, regardless.
                                        Sportponies Unlimited
                                        Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

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