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USEF Proposal for "Movin' Up"

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  • USEF Proposal for "Movin' Up"

    A poster on the "Other BB" who attended the meeting did a nice re-cap of the proposal.

    -I just wonder about the rationale behind the proposed change:
    supposedly having 20 "qualifying" rides @ 2nd will prevent a rider abusing the double bridle????

    -By requiring anyone showing medium and up to be a $ member of USDF/USEF in addition to obtaining the Level's point requirement at recognized shows, I think will be seeing many riders deciding to put those $$$ into clinics and training and schooling shows.

    Anyway, From "the Other BB"
    USEF Proposal (effective 2010)

    The basic scheme is to divide "the levels" into:

    Basic -- Training - Second;
    Medium -- Third - Fourth;
    Advanced -- PSG - I1;
    International -- I2 -- GP.

    For a rider (and this applies ONLY to riders, not horses) to be able to show at a level, the rider must obtain "points" by getting certain scores at designated tests at recognized shows.

    To show at Basic level, a rider needs no points. Thus any rider can show Tr-2nd at any time.

    To show at Medium Level, a rider must obtain "X" (current proposal is 20 but it is likely that will drop) points at 2nd level while being a Participating Member of the USDF AND a USEF member.

    To transition to Advanced you'll need 10 points at M-level; International -- 8 points at Advanced level.

    There are certain restrictions in addition to the points such as you'll need to get points from more than one (or two) judges and some of the points must be from the test of the highest level of that level. (Mike Matson has said he may type in the entire proposal for y'all to read so I'm not going to!)

    There is a substantial grandfathering proposal -- perhaps the most relevant is that everyone with USDF Medals will be grandfathered at that level (Bronze - Medium; Silver - Advanced; Gold -- International) provided the medals are earned prior to Nov. 30, 2009 (that means two more years). (There are other, less relevant provisions -- How many of you have been USET Long Listed -- if so, you're in!)

    Lastly, Juniors competing in their qualifying classes will have special rules.

    OK, how do you get points? By competing at recognized shows and scoring above 60%:
    60 - 62.99 - 1 point
    63 - 65.99 - 2 points
    66 - 68.99 - 3 points
    69 - up - 4 points

    Will it cost money to show enough to move from Basic to Medium? Yup. Assuming you are competing at 2nd level, scoring just over 60%, you'll need (current proposal) 20 rides to qualify. At a "typical" 2 day show, 2 rides/day, that's 5 shows. (In my area where 3 day shows are more the norm, that's 4 shows with some slack.) That will most likely drop (best guess is to 15 points so do the math on how many shows you'll need).
    Last edited by claire; Nov. 30, 2007, 10:51 AM.

  • #2
    -By requiring anyone showing medium and up to be a $ member of USDF/USEF in addition to obtaining the Level's point requirement at recognized shows, I think will be seeing many riders deciding to put those $$$ into clinics and training and schooling shows
    Actually, it looks like in order for your points from Basic to count to move to medium, you will need to be a participating member of the USDF and a member of the USEF. I wonder if they will remove the Group Memberships entirely? Personally I hope so, that would reduce the fees we have to pay to our GMO's, and I would hate to have my money supporting such an elitist sport.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by Ja Da Dee View Post
      Actually, it looks like in order for your points from Basic to count to move to medium, you will need to be a participating member of the USDF and a member of the USEF. I wonder if they will remove the Group Memberships entirely? Personally I hope so, that would reduce the fees we have to pay to our GMO's, and I would hate to have my money supporting such an elitist sport.

      I don't know. But if I am understanding this correctly (I may not be )
      You are "free" to ride around in Basic Level as a "Non-Participating Member of USDF/USEF"

      It is only when you desire to Move Up to 3rd that the membership $ and points at 2nd become relative.

      Like I said, I am seeing more ammies deciding to compete in Basic Level at Recognized Shows or do Schooling Shows and putting their $$$ into clinics and training...

      If so, I would wonder if they would give up Group Memberships as a (potentially large) source of income?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by claire View Post
        I don't know. But if I am understanding this correctly (I may not be )
        You are "free" to ride around in Basic Level as a "Non-Participating Member of USDF/USEF"

        It is only when you desire to Move Up to 3rd that the membership $ and points at 2nd become relative.

        Like I said, I am seeing more ammies deciding to compete in Basic Level at Recognized Shows or do Schooling Shows and putting their $$$ into clinics and training...

        If so, I would wonder if they would give up Group Memberships as a (potentially large) source of income?

        IF you ever want to move up to third, you will have had to earn your points while being a participating member. I suppose those who have no desire to move up won't need to worry about it, but most riders have some type of goal. Wouldn't it be a huge bummer if you didn't get your PM, then discovered your horse might actually be able to do third? THen you would have to go back and get all those points while your horse got too old to participate in the upper levels.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          I guess I am just not "understanding" from a business point of view.

          I agree there will always be those who are dedicated to moving up the levels, this rule will not effect them and that pool of $$$$.

          What $$$ WILL BE effected, however, are those of people from another discipline, weekend warriors with limited time and $$$ who might choose to go to schooling shows or decline to move above Basic Level at Recognized shows. Taking their $$$ to clinics or private training.

          So much for the idea of making Dressage as a sport more appealing to the masses.

          Comment


          • #6
            Who is going to pay for this?

            and who is setting up the magic database when they cannot set up a base for anything else trifling, like keeping track of sporthorse performance/breeding/etc.

            what a crock.
            one oak, lots of canyons

            http://horsesportnews.wordpress.com/

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Business Opportunity!

              You know, for someone who owns a nice equestrian facility, I wonder about the possibility of making some $$$ organizing and hosting Schooling Shows.

              Business Opportunity for 2010 people!

              Comment


              • #8
                Thoughts on USEF proposal

                I haven’t read enough on the topic to know the reasoning behind the USEF’s proposal for moving up, so bear with me. My assumption (probably wrong) is to get riders in this country to a higher standard before letting them move up the levels. Whatever the reasoning, I see problems with this proposal.

                Keeping track of all this data is an obvious problem. It seems that USDF has enough data to track as it is. Adding this element will likely entail more human and computer resources, which could add up to higher dues for members. With the point system, it could make an already terribly expensive sport even more so, which could actually discourage people from competing (as noted by someone else). And, the fewer people competing, the more it’s going to cost those who are competing. Also, with fewer people competing, I think some shows will go out of business.

                Although I prefer to train my own horse(s) up the levels, I have no problem with someone buying a trained horse and going out and having fun. Life is short, and if you can afford a PSG horse, for example, then get one and enjoy to the fullest. Also, there are plenty of riders who could not afford to ride while growing up and are starting as adults. Because of their late start, the game of catch-up will be impossible for many of them. Why should these people, who have already missed out on so much, have to miss out on more?

                I think that some of the systems we are copying from the Europeans are wonderful, and I applaud the USEF and USDF for adopting them. However, some of our uniquely American systems, I think, deserve to be preserved. And, one of them is permitting anyone who desires to compete at whatever level they want to compete, to do so. Not only are they able to live what is probably a lifelong dream, but they are helping support competitive dressage for all the rest of us.

                By the way, I have no vested interest in this decision as I’m already grandfathered in, but I do feel strongly speaking up for those who would be unduly burdened financially by this change and those who would be prevented from doing something they’ve worked a lifetime for and have a limited amount of time left in which to do so.

                Comment


                • #9
                  This didn't start out to be a cash grab, but it sure is turning into one.
                  There is no reason IMO, to keep people from showing at any level they desire, qualified or not. If they suck at third or PSG or whatever, the scores will reflect it. If they "abuse" their horse, the TD will stop it.

                  Jadadee pegged it. Its an ill thought out policy by those elitists for whom an extra $3000 or so to qualify would be pocket change.

                  Regarding the "abuse" of the double? I dunno, I've got a cat on my lap, but IME the double amplifies the faults of the rider and if you don't know what you're doing, it makes everything look worse.
                  "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I personally find this proposal very narrow minded...

                    So here is my selfish, narrow minded perspective

                    I am eventer who occassionally shows at dressage shows. I now have a bonafid dressage horse who we are planning to show 3/4th this year. He is ready. I "think" I am ready. I have shown him 2nd level occasionally (because I am also eventing my event horses) for fun and to get more ring exposure/practice. We got reasonable scores. The caveat: I never showed him as a participating member because I'm a USEA and USEF member w/ a GMO who signs me up as one of those USDF type members. [I pay enough membership fees and horse ID fees already!]. So, now do I have to kick even MORE money out to and drop our plans back down to 2nd just to be able to show at a recognized dressage show? I don't think I will... Certainly I am NOT the only eventer who does this; any upper level event horse may well be ready for a 3rd/4th level test or higher... Why be so elitist and narrow-minded about who can show what... Why limit your pool of mid level dressage riders/horses?

                    Ack. It ticks me OFF.

                    Marcia

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by millerra View Post
                      Certainly I am NOT the only eventer who does this
                      I'm another one. I event and foxhunt my homebred horse, and take him to, at most, one or two recognized dressage shows a year. I'm a gmo member because my work and event schedules are never going to let me go for USDF year-end awards or compete in regionals, but I've plugged away and this year got my Bronze. I'd like to someday get my silver. I love those goals because they require very few actual scores (therefore few shows) but do award achievment as a rider progresses through the levels. It's a great program. I go train until I think I've got a shot at getting the scores I need at a level, then I go do one or two shows, get the scores, go home and train towards the next level. Having to do a slew of shows is going to eliminate people who cross-train, don't have access to lots of show options in their areas, have to budge tightly, etc. There will be a lot of people left behind by these new requirements, and it isn't going to raise the standard of dressage.
                      Hindsight bad, foresight good.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by millerra View Post
                        I am eventer who occassionally shows at dressage shows.
                        Marcia
                        That's what I am too. It's so frustrating that they seem to be saying that if you don't bow down to the religion of dressage, and spend every penny you have in the sandbox, then really you aren't wanted in the ring.

                        This isn't about how good you are riding, but how much showing you can afford to do as well as how fancy of a horse you have bought. This year I did 2 dressage shows, 2 classes at each as well as 2 horse trials. That and taking lessons pretty much maxes out my budget.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So how do we get our voices heard??? A letter to USDF? a signed petition against this? Ask for a cross-discipline waiver?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            petition

                            I'm in favor of a petition but not a waiver.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That would...

                              Because of their late start, the game of catch-up will be impossible for many of them. Why should these people, who have already missed out on so much, have to miss out on more?
                              That would essentially be me. I rode growing up but just 4-H and western with no lessons. I'm now an older adult on a tight budget with monthly lessons and 2 young horses. I was already figuring I would only show 1-3 times a year because of the cost but maybe I should just do the lessons and clinics for my own enjoyment and not worry about the showing? Heck, I've even had trouble finding clinics I can go to that are appropriate for beginning dressage riders and horses on a budget. Anybody want to go on a trail ride with me?
                              Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Goethe

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by CatOnLap View Post
                                Regarding the "abuse" of the double? I dunno, I've got a cat on my lap, but IME the double amplifies the faults of the rider and if you don't know what you're doing, it makes everything look worse.
                                -Isn't that the point of raising the rider co-efficient to 3? If the rider is "abusing" the double, couldn't that be reflected in the rider score?

                                -And if the rationale of the "proposal" is to raise the quality of riding at competitions:
                                Why invest the $$$ in more paperwork to keep track of riders scores and membership participation, making shows more and more expensive and making a person choose between lessons/clinic or a show?

                                If riders show 3rd and up despite recieving poor scores in the current system...I would think they will continue to show at their preferred level at schooling shows under this new system.

                                -And if this is all about the $$$. Still does not make good business sense, as they will simply be reducing the (ammie) entries into recogized shows at the 3rd and up levels.

                                Who is on the board making these sort of "business" decisions?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Could someone explain the point of this (to someone who is in the dark)? Is this for safety? Who cares if someone shows above their level, they'll just get crappy scores. Doesnt hurt anything, does it?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Double bridle at third level

                                    Re: other's comments on the double bridle, I do agree that the rider score with a coefficient of 3 will have a noticeable impact on the rider's overall score, so people who are not using it correctly will be put on notice. However, my big issue is that I don't think it's in the best interest of the horse for inexperienced riders to be given the option of using a double bridle at third level. With few exceptions, it's the riders that have the least business using a double at third that are using one.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      I just think that these rules really aren't going to do much about riders abusing the double bridle or raise the quality of riding skills.

                                      Either, these "unskilled" riders will move to unrecognized shows where they can "say" they show 3rd Level (and still be riding the curb).

                                      Or, the riders with more $$$$ than riding skills will just buy their PSG "Saint" Schoolmaster and shop the shows till they get their qualifying scores.

                                      So, doesn't make $$$$ for the USDF/USEF and doesn't protect horses from unskilled or "abusive" use of the double bridle.

                                      AND it will be a costly venture passed on through increased show costs.

                                      So, the rationale behind this proposal is?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by claire View Post
                                        Who is on the board making these sort of "business" decisions?
                                        This is the problem. The system was devised by our top judges and USEF/USEF people. Obviously at the top of the sport, these people truly believe that a first level test in Wellington should be the same as a first level test anywhere in the nation. I was told by one top judge that if you can't meet the Wellington standards, don't show. She also told people that if you can't get a 70%, you shouldn't move up because a 6 is NOT a good score...it's akin to a "C" in school. Give me a break. We're riding horses, not getting degrees in Physics.

                                        Apparently, many amateurs at the lower levels, and many professionals at the upper levels (in short, anyone scoring under 60%) pain judges so they want to cut down on the frequency of these rides.

                                        I think it is easy, when one lives in such an insulated and elite world like the world of elite dressage, to lose touch with the greater reality. This plan is ill-conceived, IMO.
                                        Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

                                        Comment

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