• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Okay, I need a thread on this whole, "Call a cowboy!" thing

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Okay, I need a thread on this whole, "Call a cowboy!" thing

    I was reading another thread about a bucking horse and having been from the western world I'd like to start a thread about this "Call a cowboy!" ideology.

    The barns I am originally from are ALL cowboy barns, with reiners, cutters, and pleasure horses. They all started colts worked with problem horses and so on.

    Ok, so, watching them for YEARS desensatizing and lunging and rolling horses back... Yada Yada

    Some of you must recognize this right? That its just keeping a horse responsive, busy, or working them until they are worn out. MOST of the cowboys dont buck horses out anymore and if the horse gives a buck they usually get pulled into a circle about 1 million times.

    I had a mare that was bucking and bolting and rearing and well jumping out of her stall. SO, I took her to the lead cowboy around these parts, and he took her on the trail and rode her around the arena in roll backs and this and that.

    Do you know what happened when she came home? She was fine until I jumped her again, and then it all started over because I couldnt keep her head to my knee the whole darn ride lmao.


    My point? Well it took a JUMPER trainer to rider her around jumping her and asking her to do her job to fix her. He had to deal with the bolting, and bucking and rearing, in between fences a couple of times and POOF, it was gone

    I want to discuss this by itself since it seems to be a common response to problem horses on any forum.
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    I think that part of it is that there are very few dressage trainers who will ride a naughty horse. They flat out don't want to deal with the problem horses. So you are left finding a more adventurous english rider, which can be really hard, or sending to a "cowboy" who, while they won't let the horse buck it out, will have no problem sitting through some rambunctious behavior.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, most English trainers don't want to risk getting hurt, where the cowboys seem much less concerned, or there are more of them so more dispensable.....

      But even the older western guys are passing on starting colts or dealing with rank horses....Sign of old age (brains).

      Comment


      • #4
        "Real" cowboys are patient and gentle with their horses, cause the horses are more important than the car or truck they drive. They respect the horses because the individual horses are their bread and butter.

        Most English/Dressage trainers seem to live in a world outside of the horse, they really do not live and breath the horse. The horse to them is a piece of machinery rather than a living breathing member of the family. Minimul time is actually spent with each horse...just the ride time...grooms and stable help are the real caretakers of the horse. These people generally know the personalities of each horse very well, and they are more aware of the health and welfare of each horse than the trainers.
        www.hartetoharte.org
        Ask and allow, do not demand and force.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by spirithorse View Post
          "Real" cowboys are patient and gentle with their horses, cause the horses are more important than the car or truck they drive. They respect the horses because the individual horses are their bread and butter.

          Most English/Dressage trainers seem to live in a world outside of the horse, they really do not live and breath the horse. The horse to them is a piece of machinery rather than a living breathing member of the family. Minimul time is actually spent with each horse...just the ride time...grooms and stable help are the real caretakers of the horse. These people generally know the personalities of each horse very well, and they are more aware of the health and welfare of each horse than the trainers.
          You must not know any really good dressage trainers then. All the ones I know spend all day at the barn with their horses, know each individual personally and know all their quirks, etc.

          This is the second post I've seen of yours that really rubbed me the wrong way, so I looked at your website. Yeah, that explains a LOT!

          Comment


          • #6
            Most English/Dressage trainers seem to live in a world outside of the horse, they really do not live and breath the horse. The horse to them is a piece of machinery rather than a living breathing member of the family. Minimul time is actually spent with each horse...just the ride time...grooms and stable help are the real caretakers of the horse. These people generally know the personalities of each horse very well, and they are more aware of the health and welfare of each horse than the trainers.
            where does this stuff come from? I invite you to come hang out with me at my barn or visit with my trainer. What BS you will see this statement is.
            Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

            Comment


            • #7
              aha! it's the bit police!!!
              Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

              Comment


              • #8
                My personal experience:

                1. The real good cowboys live & breathe horses. And don't circle them a million times as a correction/punishment.

                2. Ditto the really good dressage trainers.

                Its the pretenders we all have to worry about.
                Hidden Echo Farm, Carlisle, PA -- home of JC palomino sire Canadian Kid (1990 - 2013) & AQHA sire Lark's Favorite, son of Rugged Lark.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think it's true, however, that most dressage trainers don't want to deal with a "problem" horse, unless the problem is something like difficulty with flying changes, say. *G* Bucking, rearing, bolting, refusing to load in the trailer.....

                  And the other scenario can run something like this: I was an eventer, had a youngish TB mare that had always been a slow but quiet loader into the trailer. One day, she decided she was never going to get in again. Slid right off her shoes rather than get into that trailer. We managed to get her moved from one barn to another in a VAN, by parking it very close to a 7'+ hedge, and holding her tail back over her back like a cow and literally pushing-hauling her into the van. Whew.

                  My eventing trailer (a woman) basically said to me: I can teach her to load properly, given sufficient time, but it's probably going to cost more than you want to pay at my rates. Here (handing me business card of cowboy/sheep dog trainer (??!), have him teach her. He's good, he's gentle, and he's a lot chaper than I am.

                  The cowboy came and picked her up (got her into the trailer in 3 minutes, but he didn't have an escape door, so he backed her out and it took him 3 hours to get her back in *G*). Ten days later, he brought her back, and he could open the door and she'd trot into the trailer the minute he led her up to it. And nuzzled him and obviously was happy being handled by him. And it cost me (mid-'70s) $125.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, I am freakin' blessed then because MY FEI trainer is the total package.
                    Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Neither "cowboys" or "dressage trainers" have the monopoly on being able to help a difficult horse. There are good and bad in both disciplines. Anytime someone makes generalizations about "English" riders or "western" rider, I roll my eyes and scan to the next post. If you know a good cowboy, then by all means use him/her....there are some really good ones out there. Ditto for a good dressage trainer.....there are some really good ones out there. Why get all worked up by what spirithorse says......just because some nut goes off on a rant does not make it true.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by spirithorse View Post
                        "Real" cowboys are patient and gentle with their horses, cause the horses are more important than the car or truck they drive. They respect the horses because the individual horses are their bread and butter.

                        Most English/Dressage trainers seem to live in a world outside of the horse, they really do not live and breath the horse. The horse to them is a piece of machinery rather than a living breathing member of the family. Minimul time is actually spent with each horse...just the ride time...grooms and stable help are the real caretakers of the horse. These people generally know the personalities of each horse very well, and they are more aware of the health and welfare of each horse than the trainers.
                        I have found this to be the polar opposite. My horse has a medical condition that requires me to monitor what she eats with vigilance. The only people that have asked me why I don't just get rid of her are the cowboys or the wannabes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In my dictionary "cowboy" means someone who is younger, more athletic, more in need of the money or less concerned about their safety than I am. Thus, if I have a horse that might hurt me. It goes to a cowboy. Don't care what kind of saddle they use. The older I get, the quicker they reach "cowboy" stage.

                          No abuse, no tricks, just willing to get the job done. Once you worry about getting hurt the game is over. That being said, I am 42 and I can ride out a lot of it, but I have a daughter, so sometimes I just choose not to. Have a great guy, with patience and kindness and the whole package, but if they do get dangerous, he won't back down and he has enough horse sense for the whole state of New Jersey, so it rarely comes to that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Guilty with extenuating circumstances

                            I was the person on the other thread who said I wouldn't quit with a young bucker until I had at least sent him to good cowboy.

                            I then explained what i meant by good cowboy.

                            Why would I say this? Because I have ridden with some good ones--none famous at all-- and been taught a great deal in short order and for little money.

                            But please understand this kind of advice. If you think a cowboy will fix your horse forever and you don't need to know much about how he did that, you may also not know enough to choose your fixer very well. I'm not trying to be mean, but I am trying to put a stop to the myth that I think inspired this thread.

                            I didn't think of the other two pieces you guys have brought up-- many English trainers don't want to ride "the bad ones" and also make it prohibitively expensive to have this kind of training done.

                            If this is true, then the cowboy looks like the better professional horse trainer to me.
                            The armchair saddler
                            Politically Pro-Cat

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              To me the benefit of sending a horse to a "cowboy" is to get the horse out of the ring and on trails/in the mountains...which is something I think is good for a reasonibly mature horse to experience, as less seems to phase them afterwards. I would see no point sending a horse to a cowboy if all they did is round pen/ring ride.

                              I do agree though, that you have to be careful to be sure the cowboy will train in a way that won't confuse the horse later (for example, some western horses are taught to contract from bit pressure, rather than stretch in to it), and you need to make sure that the problem is that the horse just needs miles and/or someone brave to get on it.

                              In the example of my bucking horse thread, the owner is considering sending him to a cowboy to not only assist with the buck, but also to get him out on trails and expose him to cows and other stuff....and to be honest I am happy to know that she is considering an other option so I don't feel pressured to get on him if I don't feel ready/able!
                              Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I think most of us agree there is a dearth of 'young horse trainers' in the US. It's a recurring topic here and on the breeding board, no?

                                And young horse training starts from the ground up. How many 'upper level' horses do you see dancing in the crossties, pinning their ears at feeding time, putting their mouth on anything in reach... (oh, he's just orally fixated... ) They just haven't been taught plain old MANNERS. Of course with the 'trainer' they are fine. Just like a dog when you hand over the leash. It's all about expectations and boundaries.

                                It's absolute bullsh^t that cowboys are either 'expendible' or not worried about getting hurt.

                                Mostly the opposite. Can't AFFORD to get hurt because then how are the bills going to get paid and who is going to feed/muck/etc.?

                                And if you've only seen them exhaust a horse? That's no more a 'trainer' than the pepperonis.

                                I needed an objective assist with my orphan filly. *I* had baggage. My 'cowboy guy' (in his *at least* 50's, and by no means not afraid of getting hurt... ) had the lead in his hands for maybe, MAYBE a grand total of 20 minutes the entire time. I don't think we even trotted more than a few steps for the slightly-over-an-hour. Not even CLOSE to 'exhausting.'

                                The changes were nothing short of miraculous. And of course, 98% of those changes were in ME. I just needed him to remind me where I come from. Once you've relied on a horse to save your backside when working cattle, pushing a herd through spoilbanks, or moving 80 +/- horses 7 miles to winter pasture... you have a whole new idea about 'training.' And it has NOTHING to do with fear, exhaustion or gimmicks.

                                We all bemoan the lack of young horse trainers... then have the balls to critique 'cowboys' who start babies or retrain rank horses?

                                What's wrong with THAT picture?
                                InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by spirithorse View Post
                                  "Real" cowboys are patient and gentle with their horses, cause the horses are more important than the car or truck they drive. They respect the horses because the individual horses are their bread and butter.

                                  Most English/Dressage trainers seem to live in a world outside of the horse, they really do not live and breath the horse. The horse to them is a piece of machinery rather than a living breathing member of the family. Minimul time is actually spent with each horse...just the ride time...grooms and stable help are the real caretakers of the horse. These people generally know the personalities of each horse very well, and they are more aware of the health and welfare of each horse than the trainers.
                                  Try grooming for one of the riders at Rolex. . .
                                  RIP Kelly 1977-2007 "Wither thou goest, so shall I"

                                  "To tilt when you should withdraw is Knightly too."

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I think it's more of a facilities issue, than a trainer issue. The "cowboys" have western saddles, round pens and access to trails. Also very few of them hug bunnies.
                                    Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Some years back I had a 7 yr old horse that had "issues" which ultimately caused me to sell him rather than risk life and limb. During the period where I tried to work it out, I called a "cowboy" who is quite well known in the area. He is actually a guy who spent lots of time at the track, exercising TBs and he also spends time backing the young ones and getting them going. He has probably never been in a western saddle! He is gentle and rewarding when deserved, and he has the ability to stick to the saddle thru just about any event.
                                      As to dressage trainers not wanting to deal with the problems. My trainer at the time was well into her 60's and tiny; no, she did not want to work thru his issues, and I dont blame her at all. I know other trainers who would have tried, but they were younger, bigger and stronger.
                                      As to me, I'm an amatuer; freely admit it, not qualified to do more than call for help!
                                      Best decision I made that year was to send the horse packing and even though I lost $$ in the process at least I was in one piece, and I found an older schoolmaster who is worth his weight in gold.
                                      We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I've seen some pretty harsh cowboys and some pretty harsh dressage riders...

                                        I think this thread is stereotyping wayy to much. It is not what the trainer does it's how they do it. Find a good trainer for a naughty horse that lacks self preservation for whatever reason. Not a "cowboy"... Has no one heard the expression to "cowboy it"

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X