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GDF and info

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  • GDF and info

    http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/...onclusion.html



    Paragraph 3 and 4....


    The term "learned helplessness" and the findings on this issue


    CVB and Mr. Hinneman being "praised for their courage" to talk about their recent "photo-gate".


    Okay folks lets not get into yet another heated, name calling, bitch biting, your momma, meow fest.
    What I would like to know is since these "experts" are the ones who drive the sport...how do you feel about the information..or lack there of in this article?

    What exactly constitutes "learned helplessness"...any thoughts?

    And what of coby's "courage" in a crowd of her peers yet IMO she showed NONE when she was caught out for "inaccuracies" in her statement following THE pictures. If she indeed had the courage to defend her training methods at the forum, then why the change of face in the press release to the "unwashed masses"....that is assuming that she did indeed "defend" her actions over the weekend.
    Last edited by snoopy; Nov. 3, 2007, 12:44 PM.

  • #2
    that's a REAL good start at not getting all catty meow meow, LOL.

    Comment


    • #3
      Okay I'll bite

      I don't like the term "learned helplessness" as it relates to the hyperflexion issue. To me an example of "learned helplessness" is the wife who takes over all domestic duties such that a husband, who could fomerly take care of himself, suddenly can't do a load of laundary or get a meal on the table. Both parties have to take their share of the blame. In a horse context, I think of the horse whose every footfall is directed such that without constant direction from the rider the horse doesn't think for himself at all. How that is supposed to relate to hyperflexion issue is unclear to me. There are those who do it for gymnastizing. I would think it has no relevance in that context. There are those who do it for the hyper spooky. Maybe it has some there, but still, the point is to get the horse to focus on something other than spooking, not to stop thinking for himself. And I also don't know why it would be important for a horse that shows in a 20x60 ring as opposed to, say, jumping cross country. That is not to say that dressage horses don't need to get out of the ring.

      So that is my long winded way of saying...what exactly is that term meant to convey?

      As to the courage of CVB. Whether you are for her or agin her, it is a well established tenet of diplomacy and negotiation that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar and if you want to get anywhere, you need to give people a "face saving" option.

      They are in sort of a rock and hard place scenario. If they refuse to discuss it they will be pilloried. If they are prepared to discuss and say "yes, a mistake was made" it they will be seen as either making an "admission" or being defensive.

      As to the briefness of the article, yes, more meat would be nice, but I gather the article was meant to be a brief synopsis type of thing.

      As for Monty Roberts, the organizers must feel he is contributing something or they wouldn't keep inviting him back. That surprises me but I tend to be suspicious of self-promoting types.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Mozart View Post
        I don't like the term "learned helplessness" as it relates to the hyperflexion issue...what exactly is that term meant to convey?
        here's one explanation: http://www.hippocampus-nl.com/s2e.php?content_id=337

        Originally posted by Mozart View Post
        As for Monty Roberts, the organizers must feel he is contributing something or they wouldn't keep inviting him back. That surprises me but I tend to be suspicious of self-promoting types
        In the context of the OPs article, it seems like having him on board is meant to appease cruel or abusive training accusations. In the article the forum conclusion regarding ‘learned helplessness’ was that this kind of behaviour is not evident in top dressage horses, and during a panel discussion this conclusion was supported by Monty Roberts.

        Comment


        • #5
          So you ride a horse around and around with his chin to his chest and he can only do the rider's bidding??? Because he can't see that well and is unbalanced? I am not sure I buy that. I am no fan of the technique for other reasons but I am still skeptical of the "learned helplessness" theory.
          Last edited by Mozart; Nov. 1, 2007, 05:15 PM. Reason: clarity

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by slc2 View Post
            that's a REAL good start at not getting all catty meow meow, LOL.

            HA!!! Well I "tried"...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mozart View Post
              I don't like the term "learned helplessness" as it relates to the hyperflexion issue.
              The term "learned helplessness" was coined by a Martin Seligman PhD in the early '60's based on an experiment he did on dogs. It was discovered (accidently, I might add) during an experiment in which the dogs were given a "mild" (his word, not mine) shocks at the sound of a tone. The idea was to "hook" the tone sound and the shock together,. But later, an interesting phenomenon occurred. The dogs were place in a double partition box (the partition was low -- easily jumped over by the dogs) and given shocks. They could easily escape the shock by jumping over the partition, but a large segment of the dogs who had been shocked repeatedly WITHOUT ANY AVENUE OF ESCAPE didn't even TRY to jump. They just lay there cowering. Even when the guys doing the experiments actually took them by the collar and DRAGGED them over the partition, gave them a break and then put them back on the shock side, the dogs still did not try to escape.

              Horses can also develop "learned helplessness," which basically means you will take whatever Life dishes out, because on some fundamental level you have "learned" that NOTHING you do will make any difference anyway.

              This is the idea behind the horrid old-style "cowboy" idea of pulling a horse down, hog-tying him and then beating the crap out of him. A large % of the horses will never "argue" again, because they think it won't help.

              Abuse women & children -- same thing.

              So the only connection would be if a horse had RK performed so often that they just no longer resisted.

              For instance, the horse that bucked Anky off, obviously does NOT have a learned helplessness issue <G>!

              I know this bit of info because I'm currently reading one of Seligman's books.

              Comment


              • #8
                GDF

                I was there at the forum and here is the thing:

                Coby really did not defend herself. When the subject of Power and Paint came up she said that she stands by her statement that the Pony was only lunged like that for a short while (hence no sweat in pictures) and that later the side reins were made longer. The moderator then went to an official who was (I think) with the Animal Welfare organization (he was on the panel at the time) and he said that all comments are withheld until the end of the investigation. And that was it. Well, the st. Georg magazine guy said that it was "ridiculous" to think that an experienced person like Coby could have made such a mistake. Then he said he spoke to some other competitors and they supposedly/allegedly said that they have seen the pony lunged like that many times over the last 5 years. Then some other person (british rider I think) said that she has also seen the Pony over the last 5 years at competition and he has been nothing but happy, well cared for, relaxed and glad to serve all of his riders. That got a huge amount of cheering and that was pretty much the end of the discussion.
                Those who say it didn't take courage from Coby because this was a crowd of "peers" - no it wasn't. There were many trainers and "locals" but really there were also many people from many different countries. So I think it did take courage from Coby to stand in front of that crowd.
                About the learned helplessness - the guy said pretty much this "animals who get learned helplessness become pretty much useless, and not responding to ANY stimuli. Like absolutely nothing, nada makes them do anything. The dogs in the experiments mentioned earlier had to be euthanized as they were unable to live normal lives. He said that this is the result of constant pain or pressure that doesn't go away no matter what the animal does. So the animal can't do anything about the pain/pressure etc. So technically rollkurred horses cannot have learned helplessness because otherwise they would not respond to any stimuli = be unrideable. Later on in his lecture he somehow tried to still link rollkur and LH but his science did not really support that (as above) so I am not sure what he was trying to do later saying that despite what he had just said, the rollkurred horses get LH, just partially. ??? Earlier he said that LH either is or is not, and there is not gradient. So generally his lecture wasn't that great and didn't make much sense. Unfortunately.

                Monty Roberts was there as a VIP guest and his opinion was asked repeatedly during the forum. Nobody seemed to excited about him, so I don't know why the Bartels's invited him this year and were all lovey dovey and stuff.

                The coolest part was the Franke Sloothaak presentation with Kyra. I love the guy. He rode one of his horses and did some impromptu dressage moves. Then Kyra rode the horse and that was very neat to watch.

                Ok, if you guys have any questions about the Forum, fire away! I was there the whole time but thank god I got discounted tickets (and was in Holland anyway so I didn't buy a plane ticket just for the Forum) because it really wasn't worth the money - it was a good experience, yes, but way overpriced.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Guys.....read the article, according to the "expert" "learned helplessness" was NOT FOUND to be in dressage horses...so what does this have to do with CVB?

                  The OP is a troll, don't feed it. Haven't we discussed this enough.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Liz View Post
                    Guys.....read the article, according to the "expert" "learned helplessness" was NOT FOUND to be in dressage horses...so what does this have to do with CVB?

                    The OP is a troll, don't feed it. Haven't we discussed this enough.


                    Well since I am the "troll", perhaps if you go back to what I posted, they were two different questions about two different topics!!!
                    I do not think we have discussed "the article" I was refering to.... "enough".
                    And Liz perhaps if you feel we have, then do not contribute to it...or better yet do not "feed the troll".
                    Last edited by snoopy; Nov. 1, 2007, 08:29 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      [QUOTE=CenterlineGirl2;2775710]I was there at the forum and here is the thing:

                      Coby really did not defend herself. When the subject of Power and Paint came up she said that she stands by her statement that the Pony was only lunged like that for a short while (hence no sweat in pictures) and that later the side reins were made longer.
                      QUOTE]


                      The very fact that she "stands by her statement" (and did so in a very high profile forum) concerning the pictures/training methods...to me...means she "defended" herself. If she believes her actions and the resulting statement are valid..than good for her to stand by her convictions.

                      But then us "trolls" are constantly hungry for constoversy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        <<The coolest part was the Franke Sloothaak presentation with Kyra. I love the guy. He rode one of his horses and did some impromptu dressage moves. Then Kyra rode the horse and that was very neat to watch. >>


                        Oh yes -- way cool, CenterlineGirl !

                        So--what did these two excellent horsemen have to say about the similarities/differences in their training programs?

                        Did they both feel that the mental part of training was the hardest/most valuable?

                        What did Kyra K have to say about jumping (coz I know she was a jumping whizkid before she concentrated on dressage)?


                        Thank you for the kind offer to answer questions<g>
                        one oak, lots of canyons

                        http://horsesportnews.wordpress.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks for the Re-Cap

                          CenterlineGirl,

                          Thank you for taking the time to give your report on the GDF!

                          I would like to hear your take on Kemperman's "Dressage Needs to Change" presentation.

                          What exactly did he say about:
                          -Dressage needs more Pro's or Stars?
                          -Shortening the GP test to 70 seconds?
                          -Fewer Tournaments?

                          Thanks!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Horse&amp;Hounds GDF Report

                            Well snoopy, I guess according to Horse&Hound CvB stuck to her original statement that it "was a one-off mistake and it was corrected"

                            I had thought that she finally "had the courage" to stand up and say that is the way she trains and she stands behind the method of RK lungeing.

                            Guess not.

                            http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/compe...88/152931.html


                            [quote H&H]
                            "Dutch Olympian Coby van Baalen has come under fire from the press and welfare groups after pictures were published of her lunging Power And Paint in short side-reins at the European pony championships.

                            In her demonstration at the Global Dressage Forum, she said: "It was a mistake that the reins were so short and it was corrected after a short time, that is the truth."
                            The photographer who took the images claimed the pony was in short side reins for at least 10mins. The Dutch Federation have launched an investigation into the incident."

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Thanks claire for passing on that info!!!!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                ummm, Does that make me a troll too?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  yes.

                                  that subject was gone over at length, talk about other stuff from the GDF like other posters. That is far more interesting than Coby bashing.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Liz View Post
                                    yes.

                                    that subject was gone over at length, talk about other stuff from the GDF like other posters. That is far more interesting than Coby bashing.

                                    But this "stuff" was actually a part of this year's GDF!!! And it was reported as being one of the highlights....from "trolls" in other media sources. Maybe you should concentrate your life...I mean efforts...on the publishers of those outlets.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Ahh, well, if Monty Roberts says there is no such thing as learned helplessness, it must be true. Oh, brother....I have a used car to sell too, no wheels or engine, but Monty said it's good to go!
                                      "Dreams are the touchstone of our characters." Henry David Thoreau
                                      Touchstone Farm
                                      www.bytouchstonefarm.com

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        yes the issue of learned helplessness...and to what degree...and how it pertains to the training of horses is very interesting.

                                        The talk of "no degree" in the spectrum is perplexing. Are we to believe there is no grey area in this theory?

                                        Comment

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