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Why do Arabs..

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  • Why do Arabs..

    So why do so many arabs travel croup high?

    I see it even in horses going solid 3rd and 4th. It seem particular to this breed of horse and I'm wondering what predisposes them to it?

    Thanks
    I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.

  • #2
    um, I'll venture a guess, mostly conformation.

    Ever look at a halter bred when it's just standing? They only have a 'level' topline when they are doing the pose. Many, many arabs are croup high to begin with.

    It's something that as a Sport breeder who uses Arab blood, I avoid like the plague.

    They also as a rule tend to tighten/hollow the back and have 'out and back' hock action. Again, you have to look to certain bloodlines to avoid it.

    Interestingly (to me, of course ) my guy has plenty of sit behind, but he does not have the typical tail set or 'flagging' of his tail. I'm sure it's related, somehow, though I don't know the biomechanics of it.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

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    • #3
      Personally (and I do own a couple of Arabs) I think there are two primary factors, conformation as has been stated AND the fact that their conformation makes it often very challenging to get them truly through the back. Many of the ones I see at those levels (mostly at the breed shows) and the one that I competed through third had/have a difficult time round up over the back and/or coming through the back and really mobilizing the pelvis. My horse had hock issues as well so that made going any further simply not possible.

      When I watch my arabs at liberty they always remind me of people (myself included) who have a natural arch in their back and the determination and effort one must put forth to lose the inclination to ride with that arched back (in other words ride with a neutral pelvis) and really learn how to use and tilt the pelvis appropriately (and at the right times) in order to influence the horse properly with the seat. That can only happen when one is "through the back".
      Ranch of Last Resort

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JackSprats Mom View Post
        So why do so many arabs travel croup high?

        I see it even in horses going solid 3rd and 4th. It seem particular to this breed of horse and I'm wondering what predisposes them to it?

        Thanks
        I have been involved with Arabian horses since the dawn of time.

        I perceive what you are seeing is due to 'high water hocks' and other conformation defects that are being selected FOR in our breed due to the emphasis on halter classes. Longer high legs due to cannon bone length helps to put up the croup so it looks flat for that halter stance that is so popular.

        That being said there have been some lines in the past that tend to be a little croup high. But those lines also had the ability to 'sit' and to flex their joints being so athletic.

        Some of it can also be due to training. Each horse has its strong points and weak points and that in these cases there is probably need to do exercises to encourage the horse to sit and use its rear end. Many trainers/riders no matter what the breed tend to ride front to back and that certainly does nothing to discourage croup high behavior.

        The biggest challenge I have seen with Arabians and their crosses is to encourage them to lift their backs and not hollow. And to not tense their backs. I do not know if that is conformation, muscle configuration, natural instincts or what. I just know it is a common occurance.

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        • #5
          From judging and riding many of them: because they are not ridden out to the bridle early on. They are so delicate in the throatlatch, easily flexed (to vertical or shortened). Because of this they must be ridden for a longer period of time in a slightly longer/open frame to develop strength or they never fold the hindlegs or sit. Add lateral work to a body type which has not been developed to properly take a hh, and bingo the croup comes up. Even if a horse tends to be flatter in the croup, they can have an uphill working posture.
          I.D.E.A. yoda

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Auventera Two
            You don't see this is non-halter lines. Halter lines have been selectively bred for generations to be extremely exotic and have a level topline ONLY when stretched out on the hinds. Just like with QHs, there are many types and lines of Arabs.
            Agreed! My horse is also somewhat croup hight but getting much better with correct work. They can stretch over their backs just as well as any other horse. Arabs are "different" but not so different as people say. It's all in the training.

            Comment


            • #7
              .

              The reasons are many. For some it is due to the halter and for others it is due to bad choices on the breeders part downhill and such. The first sport horse I looked at to buy was a very nice purebred halter horse that switched to sport horse. His back was very flat but not hollow and there wasnt alot of problems getting him to the bit and he was very strong. My problem with him was stiffness in the shoulder and loosening it up was most of the ride. My own horse is a mixture of sport horse and english lines and he has more of the uphill frame and isnt usually croup high although there have been days when bucking and croup high occur. I still see the shoulder problems in my own horse and have a beef more with this problem than any of the others as far as breeders go. The Arabian sport horses are getting better and you see more distinction between halter and riding horses like with the QHs. It just depends on what side of the versatility fence you are on but thats another can of worms.
              Last edited by NOMIOMI1; Oct. 22, 2007, 10:45 AM.
              ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
              http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                The reasons are many. For some it is due to the halter and for others it is due to bad choices on the breeders part downhill and such.
                "Halter" breeding isn't to blame for poorly conformed Arabians, any more than "endurance" breeding is to blame for nervous ones with upside down necks and no brakes. It's called "crappy breeding." Period.

                I did a lot research every time I bred and every time I ended up breeding to a halter horse, even though my goal was to produce nice riding horses. Why? Because they had the excellent conformation and bloodlines I wanted. And I was never disappointed in what those sires produced.

                The first sport horse I looked at to buy was a very nice 17.1 purebred halter horse that switched to sport horse.
                Either a hand doesn't equal 4" where you live or you need to get a new measuring tape.

                to the OP ... exvet gave an excellent answer to your question. I'm just fooling around at TL with my horse, but getting him to lift his back and "let go" of his pelvis is our biggest challenge.
                __________________________
                "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                the best day in ten years,
                you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

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                • #9
                  not all arabs travel croup high. mine doesn't. where have you been looking?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    .

                    Either a hand doesn't equal 4" where you live or you need to get a new measuring tape.

                    .[/QUOTE]


                    If youve been to a large arabian show lately you will see these sizey animals are becoming THE THING. My arabian is 16h (with shoes) and a purebred and by far not the largest horse in his classes. I looked at two other purebredsthis week one was a lovely mare that is bred to a warmblood that she is larger than. I should know since the QH im showing is 17.2.
                    Last edited by NOMIOMI1; Oct. 22, 2007, 01:06 PM.
                    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      honestly nomi...i have never seen a purbred over the 16 h range...and I've been showing arabs for a long time...all over this country. now i've seen half arabs hitting 17 h but that's different. name a registered purebred arab over 16.2. i'm quite curious...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Trixie's mom, I've met one over 16.2-- Russian racing bred. He was supposedly purebred, but even the trainer suspected that there might be more than a little TB in the woodpile. Gorgeous beastie, though. Of course, I've always been a fan of Anglo-Arabs.
                        According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                          No need to be snide the horse was 17.1 and if youve been to a large arabian show lately you will see these sizey animals are becoming THE THING. My arabian is 16h and a purebred and by far not the largest horse in his classes. I looked at two other purebreds that are 17h this week one was a lovely mare that is bred to a warmblood that she is larger than. I should know since my QH that is also full quarter is 17.2.
                          Well then they are flaunting the stated size standards.

                          In height, the Arabian horse generally measures 14.1 to 15.1 hands at the withers, although there are horses which measure above or below this height.
                          ... from the Arabian Horse Association website.

                          p.s. "becoming THE THING" is not necessarily a good thing. People who follow fads don't have sense enough to think for themselves.
                          "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            .

                            Are you serious?? At the Scottsdale purebred class there was probably 5-6 horses that were very large.
                            Are you guys talking about sport horses??
                            Last edited by NOMIOMI1; Oct. 22, 2007, 10:47 AM.
                            ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                            http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I believe the thread is about ARABIANS. Just plain ol' ARABIANS.

                              Define "sport horses", please.
                              "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                                Are you serious?? At the Scottsdale purebred class there was probably 5-6 horses well over 16h and I looked at to buy 3 of them. The one Im talking about is named Mendeley Bey and one of the mares was Rosies something or other Ill have to get her name.

                                ermm..... I love google:

                                "This gelding stands 16.1 hands and with his type and size would be suitable for a tall rider. He has been shown successfully in Sport horse as well as Hunter Pleasure. This year at Region 7, he was Reserve Champion SHUS and Top 5 SHUS ATR"

                                I don't see anything about 17 hands on his sale website....



                                I dunno, I rode with a girl for a while who had a TRUE! 16.2 HAND! ARAB! and from standing next to him, I think if you used a stick he'd have come out maybe just over 15.3.
                                "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                                My CANTER blog.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  .

                                  Originally posted by loshad View Post
                                  Trixie's mom, I've met one over 16.2-- Russian racing bred. He was supposedly purebred, but even the trainer suspected that there might be more than a little TB in the woodpile. Gorgeous beastie, though. Of course, I've always been a fan of Anglo-Arabs.
                                  Funny you should say this because I have had people accuse me of my horse being part TB. When they see that he looks just like his very Arab parents who are sporty and large as well then they give it up.
                                  ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                                  http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                                    No need to be snide the horse was 17.1 and if youve been to a large arabian show lately you will see these sizey animals are becoming THE THING.

                                    I must not be going to the right shows. I only go to dinky little venues like Regions 1, 2, 7, and 8, US Natl's, Scottsdale, and Youth, where the purebred horses are fairly well-built, but rarely if ever go over 15.2. My old barn had one 15.1 PB hunter mare, and she stuck out like a sore thumb because of her size- and very often lost to much smaller, more typey horses.

                                    Bigger is better, yes, but 'big' is relative and quality and type still beat out size every time. I have seen one 15.3hh purebred, but he was so coarse he looked like a poor quality half-arab.

                                    Perhaps it was a case of the horse looking bigger than he was? My NSH sticks out at 15.2, but everyone always guesses his height at 16hh+. A pity either way, because I wanted a pony.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Sounds like my neighbor who SWEARS his Tennessee Walker is 17H, well, maybe if you measured him at the poll!!

                                      I told him, gee, that's funny, his withers come up to my nose, and I'M 16.1H....

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
                                        I believe the thread is about ARABIANS. Just plain ol' ARABIANS.

                                        Define "sport horses", please.
                                        hitch, here's one:
                                        http://homepage.mac.com/starview/legend.html

                                        He was second in Sporthorse in hand at The Scottsdale.
                                        "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                                        My CANTER blog.

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