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Will it die alone?

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  • Will it die alone?

    I've been thinking about the rollkur debacle and would venture this guess. Rollkur as we see it today will end when Anky retires. It will go back to being the dirty little secret device some riders will use, but it will not be in the fore front of warm up arenas, and it will die because it's major voice will be unheard. This of course might take a decade, but I do believe all these training *ideas* have a shelf life, and a death by retirement of the *head*. The head dies, so goes the body.

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    ~Equine Jewelry~
    Used Saddles For Sale
    www.divadesigns.biz

  • #2
    It had diminished after Uphoff, then it came back with a vengence with SJ. Now the minds eye view of what round is includes shortened in front and over tempo, and thats problematic for changing.

    Unfortunately, it is traditional dressage which is probably dead and just not buried. Until riders really understand what a hh is to produce (modified balance which folds the hindlegs and lifts/arc/opens the throatlatch), there can be no renewal.

    I wish that the rules would either be followed, or changed to suit the situation rather than be a facade for how they train. Then the two methods can each be held to their own standards.
    I.D.E.A. yoda

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    • #3
      Another newb question from me.

      Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
      Until riders really understand what a hh is to produce (modified balance which folds the hindlegs and lifts/arc/opens the throatlatch), there can be no renewal.
      What does "hh" stand for? Somehow I feel like it's something really obvious that is slipping my mind at the moment.

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      • #4
        half hault
        www.destinationconsensusequus.com
        chaque pas est fait ensemble

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        • #5
          Oh, duh! I knew it was something really obvious. Thanks.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
            Unfortunately, it is traditional dressage which is probably dead and just not buried. Until riders really understand what a hh is to produce (modified balance which folds the hindlegs and lifts/arc/opens the throatlatch), there can be no renewal.

            I wish that the rules would either be followed, or changed to suit the situation rather than be a facade for how they train. Then the two methods can each be held to their own standards.


            WOW. This is a totally fascinating statement, and I'd like to hear more . . .

            Please?

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            • #7
              I don't think traditional dressage is dead and unburied. There are still a few of us guerrilla force riders in the bushes carrying on the tradition, or trying.
              Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

              Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by merrygoround View Post
                I don't think traditional dressage is dead and unburied. There are still a few of us guerrilla force riders in the bushes carrying on the tradition, or trying.
                It's definitely not dead. There are still some very traditional trainers out there to be found but I will admit that finding one is very difficult as so many people are way overdoing the "deep" riding. I am truly blessed to have one who has really helped my poor horse who a LDR trainer had nearly ruined. My coach is also an R judge also.

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                • #9
                  It's not dead. And if I show and get beaten by hollow horses BTV, so be it.

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                  • #10
                    The part of IDEAyoda's comment that I find most intesting is the idea that 2 completely separate and distinct types of "dressage" might currently exist.

                    This seems to me to represent the true state of affairs better than the theory that extreme training methods are just a short-cut way of getting something resembling "classical" results faster.

                    IDEAyoda's phraseology confused me a little, but it sounded like she was suggesting that these differences might eventually be officially recognized, and TWO disciplines might actually result . . . ? (Kind of like WP horse evolving out of western performance horses, or competition hunters evolving out of field hunters, perhaps?)

                    Very thought-provoking notion!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Red Barn View Post
                      The part of IDEAyoda's comment that I find most intesting is the idea that 2 completely separate and distinct types of "dressage" might currently exist. !
                      All you have to do is look at dressage's long history, what was tested (start with the first Olympic tests in 1912, where the horse was required to jump over a barrel moving towards horse/rider) and what was valued. Or go back two centuries earlier and see what was valued. There are at least two different brands of dressage -- I think brands is more accurate than "2 completely separate and distinct types of "dressage' "

                      Originally posted by Red Barn View Post
                      IDEAyoda's phraseology confused me a little, but it sounded like she was suggesting that these differences might eventually be officially recognized, and TWO disciplines might actually result . . . ? (Kind of like WP horse evolving out of western performance horses, or competition hunters evolving out of field hunters, perhaps?)
                      If you're talking FEI brand of dressage the earlier comment is correct, the FEI rules often do not match what is rewarded at the top international level. If you're talking the Classical brand of dressage, that is often not rewarded at the top international FEI level -- in favor of more flash and less emphasis on pure or classic textbook execution of the movements.

                      On a horse putting in an FEI test on the regional level, like my horse, I found the USA judges to be fair and reasonable, meaning we can get the job done well enough with classical-type training on a non-Warmblood.

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                      • #12
                        Yes, sm, that's just what I mean. (And I think of those barrels often!)

                        If you prefer the word "brands," thats fine, but the question remains: are the brands moving further and further apart? (I think so, myself.) And if so, when and where do they part company for good?

                        Right now there seems to be a lot of confusion about goals as well as methods. Hard to clear that up as long as the two brands are muddled up together.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think it's up to us --- as the consumer.

                          I was at the Virginia Horse Center a couple days ago watching the Arabian Nationals (even though I'm a thoroughbred person through and through) and I was speaking with a rep of USDF, USDF had a booth there.

                          We were agreeing on the importance of the All Breeds Program on the core strength of keeping dressage healthy, I believe I used the phrase "organically sound." Or maybe she was not agreeing, but nodding along in the right spots to keep me a happy athlete **grin** astutely realizing she was surrounded at an non-WB national championship. Seriously, I really believe she and I had the same take on it.

                          Anyway, USDF does offer us the option (encouraging all of us in the all breeds program) not to drink the SJ kool aid.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Anyway, USDF does offer us the option (encouraging all of us in the all breeds program) not to drink the SJ kool aid.
                            But how difficult is it to move people away from the SJ/AvG version of dressage when they are awarded at the highest levels? Extreme hyperflexion, in the warm-up, should be severely penalized, but I don't see that happening.
                            *** 4 More Years ***
                            *** 4 More Years ***

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                            • #15
                              there should be a video of the warm-up, and the warm-up should count somehow. It's going to take a lot of uproar to get the FEIs attention to deal with this, jmho. It;'s a small world, and I think the FEI has some registry alliances that clouds their agenda. After all, how hard is it to read their own rulebook?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                a little help...

                                Am fascinated by this thread. Unfortunately my pea-brain (at the moment anyway) has some issues with a lot of the abbrevieations used... Is there a thread somewhere that lists the common and not so common ones for a person that is just getting into these forums??? I haven't asked before because I'm pretty sure some of them are obvious, but any help will be great.

                                TIFN (that's it for now),

                                Lori

                                IE: LDR; BTV; OP; i know there are lots more... just can't think right now... THANKS in advance!
                                Last edited by TeddyRocks; Sep. 29, 2007, 05:10 PM. Reason: additional info...
                                Lori
                                Fly Teddy Fly!
                                Connemara's Rock!
                                RIP Reilly Go Bragh

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                                • #17
                                  ldr=low deep round, op=original poster, btv=behind the vertical
                                  I.D.E.A. yoda

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    And don't forget - the dreaded and evil RK = Rollkur, ie Hyperflexion. Here's a sample that I posted in another thread;

                                    http://www.hippson.se/cldoc/18900.htm

                                    Scroll down to AvG.
                                    Last edited by Dalfan; Sep. 29, 2007, 05:36 PM. Reason: To include the link with the RK
                                    *** 4 More Years ***
                                    *** 4 More Years ***

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                                    • #19
                                      Technically speaking, aren't the TD/Stewards supposed to police the warm-up's. I had heard of the one TD who started to issue a card to AvG for excessive/prolonged "bending" at a particular show. Wasn't that TD forced to back down because a higher-up intervened on SJ's behalf?
                                      *** 4 More Years ***
                                      *** 4 More Years ***

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        This is my major gripe these days, I've been to four World Cups now, and the Anky et al. do win, and they are not riding Classical Dressage with capital letters. They ride a style I would call near to saddle seat, it has flash and dazzle without the proper body structure on the horse. The horse has his head high, his back flat, nearly static, the legs fling, and the hocks are worked behind the point of the butt. Anky is the example everyone brings up, but the entire team is worthy of the same team collective. My saddest moment ever watching dressage was seeing Gribaldi, and how Edward Gal is riding this horse. Beyond horrid. If you want a real eye opener go to Youtube and see the horse on the first night Edward Gal rode him, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuVWEJ4_LCE], the horse ws light, up in front, moving well behind, and trying his darnest to be a great dressage horse. Edward has killed this in Gribaldi. Edward gives his hand in this tape!!!! Watch him today ride the horse. I'd like to rip his hands off his arms when he rides today. (Don't get me started! )

                                        So yes, there are two dressage ideals to day, the high stakes dressage, and classical. No one wants to work round? What is up with this? Is it too hard? Is it too easy to slip out of the rankings if your horse does not flip his toes? Go hollow 99% of the time? I dread the rollkur people they destroy backs on their horses, they say they are stretching the back. I say BUNK, it's a system to have the horse move his legs more and not his body.
                                        ~Equine Jewelry~
                                        Used Saddles For Sale
                                        www.divadesigns.biz

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