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Do homework or Die!!

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  • Do homework or Die!!

    Last edited by pasturepal; Dec. 14, 2011, 09:34 AM.

  • #2
    Whilst we don't know the nature or details of how the horse threw the rider, that doesn't necessarily make a horse unmarketable or less talented, or am I seeing this the wrong way?

    CKD's accident was extremely unfortunate, but I didn't think this would put the horse in a negative daylight or less talented for its work therefore less of a sales prospect.

    If a horse has shown a chronic behavorial issue that is potentially going to put future riders at risk, it should be mentioned, but not all falls need to downgrade the horse, some are just unfortunate bad luck happenings.

    Actually this got me thinking, 'Would I buy a horse if I know someone had previously fallen off the horse?'


    • #3
      Well I would ask her, the owner.

      Ive been thrown by the horse I never felt I would come off of, and stayed on the one that tried to throw me once a week.

      In fact, the horses at our barn that have gotten people off, are generally the school horses that are mild tempered.

      LOL horse relativity.
      ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~


      • #4
        I am on the fence about this one. We don't know the nature of the incident. It could be something where the horse was truely not to blame, such as another horse bolted in to him and rider came off.

        It would be sad to see a horse labled as dangerous forever due to an unfortunate incident.

        If it was due to the horse having a dangerous habit, then I agree they are negligent.

        As the incident seems to be public knowledge though, they should likely come clean with details.
        Freeing worms from cans everywhere!


        • #5
          Before making an assessment if that was unethical or not to not disclose the information, I think you need to know the details of the incident. If it is a recuring issue with this horse, then yes, I believe it is the seller's responsibility to mention this to a potential buyer. If it was the result of some isolated situation that set the horse off, then as a seller I don't know if I would feel the need to disclose that to a potential buyer. E.g., about a year ago I was at a show cooling down, walking my "bombproof" horse along a fenceline after a class. We stumbled across a bee hive that had apparently fallen off the fence. I got stung a few times swatted at them so was a little off balance, and the horse took a few of them like a champ before throwing some bucks that unseated me and left me sprawled out across the fence with him galloping off. The fall left me out of the saddle for about a month. Is he a dangerous horse, heck no, anyone can ride him (unless of course he's getting stung by a swarm of bees). I don't know if I would feel the need to tell that story to a buyer or not.


          • #6
            On another note...your heading is a little dramatic for this situation, unless you were being sarcastic (which by the tone of your post doens't appear to be the case). It doesn't mention that the horse ever killed anyone, and many riders have taken unfortunate falls on very nice/reliable mounts and gotten injured. If I was the seller and read the post I think I would be quite disturbed that someone implied --in a public forum-- that my horse had the potential to kill someone based off of a very brief article that was dug up on the Internet, especially considering that no one knows the real story behind the incident.


            • #7
              Originally posted by pasturepal
              The story is on the trainers website - it was not a beehive incident. I don't want to be too specific for obvious reasons.
              OK, this is more information than what I, and obviously other people who responded, got when reading your original post. In this case, if you have information that shows that the horse has a behaviour issue, then I 100% agree that it should have been disclosed and the seller is in the wrong.


              • #8
                If the trainer's website doesn't explicitly say "Betty was riding Poopsiekins, known for being a man eating, fire breathing monster, and was nearly killed", then I really do think you're being overly dramatic.

                Even if the horse is some kind of monster, I still think you're being a little overdramatic with the posting and acting like it could save a life, blah blah blah. Kind of like the "I challenge everyone to wear a helmet" and the "Look at his eyes when he's in RK!" posts. If the seller is dishonest, so what? They aren't the first and won't be the last. No reason to get uppity about it.


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Coppers mom View Post
                  If the trainer's website doesn't explicitly say "Betty was riding Poopsiekins, known for being a man eating, fire breathing monster, and was nearly killed", then I really do think you're being overly dramatic.

                  Even if the horse is some kind of monster, I still think you're being a little overdramatic with the posting and acting like it could save a life, blah blah blah. Kind of like the "I challenge everyone to wear a helmet" and the "Look at his eyes when he's in RK!" posts. If the seller is dishonest, so what? They aren't the first and won't be the last. No reason to get uppity about it.



                  • #10
                    It is your job as the buyer to ask these questions, if it was important to have a record on every time someone fell off that horse. Most of the time, falls are the riders fault, not a reflection of the horse. If they disclosed the horse had issues, that was appropriate. It is your job to ask for specifics.
                    "The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli"


                    • #11
                      This is an interesting debate. I do think that there is not enough information here to make a call on this particular situation. Strange things happen with horses, and that doesn't make them dangerous or even "problem" horses. Unless it is proven that there is/was NO physical issue to cause the problem and it was not an isolated incident.

                      OTOH, if a horse has done similar things over a period of time with different riders (i.e. has reared on five different riders falling on one of them, and has no physical issues to account for it), then yes, I believe the owner has the obligation to disclose.

                      Some buyers will not be put off by a one-time incident, no matter what the outcome was to the previous rider; some will find it a deal-breaker no matter what the circumstances were if the rider was badly hurt. There are buyers willing to take on chronic problem horses too, if the horse is talkented enough, but in those cases, the seller needs to have an honest dialogue with the buyer about the horse's issue.

                      From my personal perspective: I bought my current horse for next to nothing because he was a "problem horse." Supposedly he bolted with his owner while she was mounting and she fell off. He has never done anything but stand like a rock for me, ever. A subsequent lessee sent him home after he (supposedly) reared and then bucked a friend of hers off. He has never offered to buck or rear when I've ridden him, ever. If I had listened to them instead of my gut about this horse, I'd have missed an awesome opportunity. So I say, listen to your gut instinct about the horse.


                      • #12
                        Someone over on off course did pretty much the same thing. Joined, made first post about dishonest sellers, then deleted everything when people didn't agree.



                        • #13
                          I don't know what horse OP is talking about, but I hope that owners would disclose horse's vices. But some people have different opinions on what is considered a vice.

                          While every horse can buck, I hope that sellers would disclose dangerous behavior such as bronco bucking or line bucking, rearing, stumbling and falling, throwing head way back to kick the rider in his face, biting, sticking, etc, etc...

                          I myself had been in the situation of trying a new horse and ending up in ER with a broken bone from a handful of line bucks. I know a clinician who got on a horse that put his head upward and to his chest and took of with him. I know a trainer who took a horse in training and he reared up and fell down with her pinning her under (repeatedly) ... and none of those were disclosed by owners and they should off been.

                          There is a difference in just a "happy to be alive buck/spook" and "I want you off back NOW" behavior. Dangerous behavior always should be disclosed. But that would turn away many potential buyers and lower the price of the horse as well - so yes, there are sellers who do not disclose a dangerous behavior of their horses.


                          • #14
                            Im just curious what is line bucking?

                            I agree with above, it a can go both ways.
                            ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~


                            • #15
                              I thought it was a warning for the junior riders...


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                                Im just curious what is line bucking?
                                Line of continues bucks. I usually fall down after 4/5 line bucks. But I know a local young horse trainer who's record is 14 line bucks!


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by pasturepal
                                  I will try to clarify. I did not delete posts because people did not agree with me. I thought I hadn't communicated my situation clearly enough and was challenged on how to do so without being too specific. I was sincere in my effort to say do your homework (internet research etc) because I thought I had. I will try one more time. I responded to an ad. The horse had an excellent record - easily verifiable on line. The horse was currently not in work because the owner wanted to give the horse a break from what had been a very active training and showing schedule. I stated the rider wanted to be able to test horse under saddle - get back to me when horse is under saddle. The owner sent many emails over months with great detail about horse wanting us to buy horse and fulfill horses potential. I asked many questions (not new to horse business) and thought I covered all my basis. Did search on internet and found much of the information provided by owner could be confirmed. Spoke with judges who remembered horse as talented. I did one last search. I then found an obscure mention in an article that the accomplished professional who brought horse along suffered in their words an injury that they thought would end their riding career while riding this horse. It took them a long time to recover from the accident. I do not blame the horse - accidents happen. I did feel the owner should have mentioned this. I did email the owner and have received no response. I have had several horses who had "histories". They were revealed by sellers and we knew to proceed with care. The horses all went on to significant careers. I do feel this could have ended badly - severe injuries or more. I was being sincere - because I thought it could help someone else and I believe a potential buyer has a right to decide if they want to pursue such a situation.
                                  If it was an accident, then there is no need to say "well he broke Betty's back and now she's going to spend the rest of her life in a wheelchair". This isn't history, this is someone got hurt while participating in a dangerous sport by chance.

                                  ANYTHING with horses can end badly. Going onto an internet BB to try to save lives or whatever by encouraging people to look into the horse they're buying, and trying to make something out of nothing is ridiculous and way over dramatic.

                                  Going by everything you've said, the owner wasn't being dishonest in any way. They aren't preventing the buyer from making a good, informed decision, and they aren't misrepresenting the horse. The horse Courtney fell from shouldn't be stigmatized as dangerous because of a freak accident, and neither should this horse.
                                  Last edited by Coppers mom; Mar. 26, 2010, 04:34 PM.


                                  • #18
                                    I agree. I wouldn't necessarily disclose an unfortunately accident right off the top. (Emphasis on ACCIDENT).

                                    If this were a repeat behavior, the horse had anything that might make it dangerous etc, that would be different.
                                    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."


                                    • #19
                                      Let me tell you about an ABSOLUTELY LOVELY AND GENUINE training level/novice level event horse. Scoped out at 3'. But did his best for his owner at 3'3" (training). And it made him sore and he never got any maintenance.

                                      BNT's were lining up to buy this horse for 10 year old kids. He was a crappy mover, but honest as the day is long. His stride was about 10 foot. Owner decided she had to go prelim. EVERYONE told her neither she nor the horse could do it. One day, on her own, she galloped the poor guy down to a 3'6" oxer, missed and broke her neck when he tried to put on the brakes and slid thru the jump. She was not solid in the tack and she put him in a terrible position. She lived and healed and rides today. It would be an injustice to even mention what happened in the same conversation that one marketed this horse.

                                      If horses lived forever, I would buy that horse for my 3 year old child and she could ride him through BN and I would NEVER worry. He was an angel from heaven for his owner and any other horse would have given her the bird three years before she broke her neck.


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Dressage Art View Post
                                        Line of continues bucks. I usually fall down after 4/5 line bucks. But I know a local young horse trainer who's record is 14 line bucks!
                                        over 8 seconds?