• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Tell me your thoughts about self carriage

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Tell me your thoughts about self carriage

    Ok, so I read a piece about self carriage being just that, and how riding off of the seat can mean completely dropping the reins (both) and the horse stays in a frame.

    SO, my question is how do you have a horse that truly stretches into contact IF you can drop the reins and still have a frame?

    I have read and seen this in clinics often enough, that I feel there must be a dividing line, and/or there is a point in the training where this can happen.

    And I am not talking about short periods, I am talking about riding transitions and such, not just a few moments...
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    I had it explained to me as being different in when you ask them to hold the frame off of your seat and then asking them to strech off your seat. IDK if that helps you, i didnt understand it haha, but since i had asked the question before and gotten an answer i figured i would share

    Comment


    • #3
      I think a lot of people think of riding as pursuing "one picture".

      So, they don't want to do dressage with their hunter, because won't practicing the dressage contact ruin the hunter frame?

      Or, they don't want to do hunters with their young dressage horse, because won't that prevent the horse from ever accepting the contact?

      Similarly, people often spend EITHER all their time getting the horse to stretch to the contact OR all their time developing self carriage. They EITHER ride their young horse with the poll at the highest point OR they ride long down and out.


      Riding is dynamic. It is not "one picture". Every picture should be available promptly for the asking.
      The point is to be able to ride your horse in any frame, at whim. It should not require three weeks of reschooling to get a horse to go from a second level frame to a hunter frame: it should require a change in the contact and seat, and voila. It should not require three weeks of reschooling to get a horse to go from pirouette canter on a looped rein to a stretchy frame up the diagonal: it should be a change in seat and voila, horse stretches. If you are approaching the turn and want to ride the short side in your stretchy frame still, do that. If you want the pirouette canter again and self-carriage, well ask for that then. Either frame should be there for the asking, no matter what gait, and no matter whether you are riding a straight line or a circle. (And a lot of people never even CONSIDER the idea of the "stretchy straight line". What? Isn't that just for circles? And so on.)

      There isn't one answer; there isn't one frame.
      You train the horse so that everything is available to you, promptly and easily, and then you select from the menu what you need for that moment and that schooling objective.
      It could be different again in three minutes or even in three steps.

      If you want to do a stretchy circle and I'm going to feed you a loop and you fill it up and stretch into the contact, it should be there for the asking. If you change your mind and decide actually let's do self carriage, I'm going to feed you a loop and you stay the same, well, that should be there for the asking too.
      And if you decide you want to split the difference and do one of each on respective halves of a 20m circle, well, THAT should be there too.

      As for when in the training can they do this?
      Today.
      It doesn't matter if it is training level or GP. Maybe you can't expect a stretch all the way down to his ankles or a self-maintaining pirouette canter, but the basic concept the horse can do it today.
      The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
      Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
      Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
      The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

      Comment


      • #4
        There are plenty of questions we ask there horse where one or more of our aids overlap. If I want canter, I bring the outside leg back- same thing if I want haunches in. Its the other aids (or the nuances of that one aid) that let the horse know which it is that you want.

        It's no different with this question. The hands do the same thing when asking for stretchy chewy circle at 1st level, or when doing the release both reins at canter in 3rd level. Its the weight and seat aids that tell the horse which the correct answer is. I bring my shoulders (and thus my weight) a degree forward when I want stretch, and I stay loose and swingy and following through my hips and back. When I want to check self carriage, I rebalance back with half halts, keep my shoulders and weight back, and maintain some positive tension or holding in my back and hips.

        There are also nuances in how I give the reins- if I want self carriage, I will push my hands straight towards the horses mouth, slightly up and forward. If I want stretching, I will drop my hands down to the sides of the withers as I reach forward.

        As far as when you can teach the difference, I'd say as soon as the horse is comfortably taking increased weight on the hinds legs- so a little bit into collected work- somewhere between training and 2nd level. I'd start with developing a really nice balanced trot and then giving the inside rein for a stride.

        It also comes from discipline in your riding every day. Not holding the horse in the position you want, but putting him there and letting him maintain it until you say otherwise, and correcting him when he changes the plan without being asked.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
          I think a lot of people think of riding as pursuing "one picture".

          So, they don't want to do dressage with their hunter, because won't practicing the dressage contact ruin the hunter frame?

          Or, they don't want to do hunters with their young dressage horse, because won't that prevent the horse from ever accepting the contact?

          Similarly, people often spend EITHER all their time getting the horse to stretch to the contact OR all their time developing self carriage. They EITHER ride their young horse with the poll at the highest point OR they ride long down and out.


          Riding is dynamic. It is not "one picture". Every picture should be available promptly for the asking.
          The point is to be able to ride your horse in any frame, at whim. It should not require three weeks of reschooling to get a horse to go from a second level frame to a hunter frame: it should require a change in the contact and seat, and voila. It should not require three weeks of reschooling to get a horse to go from pirouette canter on a looped rein to a stretchy frame up the diagonal: it should be a change in seat and voila, horse stretches. If you are approaching the turn and want to ride the short side in your stretchy frame still, do that. If you want the pirouette canter again and self-carriage, well ask for that then. Either frame should be there for the asking, no matter what gait, and no matter whether you are riding a straight line or a circle. (And a lot of people never even CONSIDER the idea of the "stretchy straight line". What? Isn't that just for circles? And so on.)

          There isn't one answer; there isn't one frame.
          You train the horse so that everything is available to you, promptly and easily, and then you select from the menu what you need for that moment and that schooling objective.
          It could be different again in three minutes or even in three steps.

          If you want to do a stretchy circle and I'm going to feed you a loop and you fill it up and stretch into the contact, it should be there for the asking. If you change your mind and decide actually let's do self carriage, I'm going to feed you a loop and you stay the same, well, that should be there for the asking too.
          And if you decide you want to split the difference and do one of each on respective halves of a 20m circle, well, THAT should be there too.

          As for when in the training can they do this?
          Today.
          It doesn't matter if it is training level or GP. Maybe you can't expect a stretch all the way down to his ankles or a self-maintaining pirouette canter, but the basic concept the horse can do it today.
          Well said and thank you!!! Many of the top riders start their horses out in a LDR frame so they can stretch over their backs, necks and move forward...As the lesson proceeds and the horse developes a swinging carriage the head and neck are brought up through the use of the leg and seat.. The head and neck "should" go where ever the rider wants it to....no questions.. and always with contact. I never ride in one "frame" or one "picture".. What I think is most important is that the energy is always coming from behind..back to front.. Just my thoughts

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            The frame is not what I was asking about Of course the neck should go where you want it.

            Rather, I was asking if a horse should "stay" in a frame without that outside rein?

            The seat idea is interesting, that your seat goes forward to stretch.

            I actually sit as tall stretching as I do for collection, SO my horse would be confused if I sat taller to "hold" a position since my seat is often the same.


            Hmmm
            ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
            http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Because when you do a freewalk or stretchy trot you shouldn't throw your reins away. The horse reaches for the contact because the horse wants the contact. You push into the contact. So if you ride with your seat into a dressage frame you wouldn't hold contact for them to follow. Usually results in them staying with the contact they had and staying in self carriage,You also have to use your seat to help the horse determine. So if I throw away my reins I will sit back and push as if I am riding just the same. If I want them to stretch into contact I will go forward the slightest, just a smidge and hold the contact while feeding it. See the misconception about freewalk and stretchy trot is that many people just throw away the reins and the horse drops the head like a western horse or looks around because they are not truely at the level of self carriage yet ,you want to feed the reins thru your hands and have the horse follow the contact down and hold that contact so they are still using and carring themselves. Alot of horses are not truely in self carriage and this will tell you alot if you try it with your horse. Hope this makes since.

              ETA: Your asking should a horse stay in a "frame" if you let go of the reins, in true self carriage the horse will stay, it will be light in the forehand and the horse will carry itself the way it was carring itself before you let go.
              Last edited by rabicon; Mar. 18, 2010, 03:13 PM.
              Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

              Comment


              • #8
                I guess I have always thought of it differently... Self-carriage equates to collection, in my mind/book.

                Yes, a hunter can be in self-carriage, when left at liberty, and will maintain the same length of neck & stride that he had...

                But for me, the goal of self carriage is in collection. The more collected the horse gets, the more he sits and comes up in front, the less there is to do anything with the reins.

                It's developed day-by-day, transition by transition.

                Until you have that piaffe with the reins looped.

                A very different idea, for me. Perhaps not correct, I've been disabused of many notions over the years, but this is what I get from Jean-Claude Racinet, and from my teacher. And what I have experienced in bringing a horse up. The more collected he gets, the lighter and lighter and lighter.
                InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                Comment


                • #9
                  True self carriage in balance.

                  Your question is very subtle. It boils down to the way in which a horse carries himself either as a result of 'permeability'to the aids OR as a result of actually carrying himself by himself. Durschlassigheit is the equivalent of permeability and when a horse is 'permeable' to the aids he will, even in the very best of circumstances, to some very small extent rely upon the contact by leaning on the hand a trifle. In such a horse half-halts will be forever required, to a greater or lesser extent, in order to minimise this leaning. Such is Austro-Hungarian self carriage. A horse trained in the Latin schools, in lightness from the very beginning, will be capable, ultimately, if impulsed and straight, of carrying his frame in balance such that the tempo,cadence and frame become the horse's resonsibility and not the rider's. The 'descent de main' that la Gueriniere wrote about is such an example where after rebalancing a horse, if necessary with a half-halt, the hand is lowered and the contact all but released as a result of this action such that the horse is now 'on parole' until such time as the rider wishes to intervene. This type of self carriage does not rely simply on permeabilty to the aids,but of course does depend upon utter obedience in submission to the aids, on each side, which is half the definition of lightness.
                  To get to this stage and for it to last any appreciable time takes a very long time and a great deal of patience and understanding,neither of which commodities are very common these days.
                  I do not talk here, at all, of the balance seen in some Western horses who move simply on their forehands on a slack rein.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    self carriage

                    Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                    Ok, so I read a piece about self carriage being just that, and how riding off of the seat can mean completely dropping the reins (both) and the horse stays in a frame.

                    SO, my question is how do you have a horse that truly stretches into contact IF you can drop the reins and still have a frame?

                    I have read and seen this in clinics often enough, that I feel there must be a dividing line, and/or there is a point in the training where this can happen.

                    And I am not talking about short periods, I am talking about riding transitions and such, not just a few moments...
                    Yor transitions must have a degree of connection. No throwing away of reins. It comes from the connection of the leg .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Self carriage comes from the horse being off the leg! Not just throwing the reins at him. The reins are released for short periods of time !!! Otherwise the horse is stretching to find the connections, which is also correct.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Self-carriage vs. Bracing

                        When riding or watching a horse work, how does one tell the difference between a horse who is truly in self-carriage (or well on their way to developing it) and a horse who simply braces the neck and goes around in a false frame? I usually study the hind end to help me determine, but have found that even some horses are able to track up nicely and appear engaged (certain breeds ore than others) and STILL be braced in the neck. Discuss.
                        Karen
                        " Go to the big shows. Watch the great riders and dare to think ... That could be me."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hindend engagment is not what I would consider self carriage. My TWH has plenty of hindend engagment and tracks up better than my dressage horse but thats in his breed and how he should go but he has no idea of self carriage in dressage terms. He goes around head bobbing just like a walking horse should. I have seen many of other horses that track up nicely out in the pasture but they are not self carriage they just reach when they go. Thats my thoughts. Correct me if I'm wrong.
                          Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think the answer is both are correct. I can ride and ask my horse to stretch into the outside rein, he'll follow it down to the ground if I ask. Then I'll ask for a collected movement and I can give the reins away and he'll stay right where I left him. To me, nothing beats doing the collected movements completely off the seat with no contact at all. To me that is the ultimate in dressage, but you can't get there without first teaching the horse to stretch into the contact. They go hand in hand really.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                              T
                              Rather, I was asking if a horse should "stay" in a frame without that outside rein?
                              Yes. He should stay in his frame without the outside rein.

                              And no. If you change what you are asking for, no, he should NOT stay the same without that outside rein; instead he should change his frame to reach down and stretch.
                              Last edited by meupatdoes; Mar. 18, 2010, 08:19 PM.
                              The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                              Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                              Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                              The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I think that the idea of the horse putting its neck where the rider wants it is being misunderstood/abused. The horse can only put it's neck where it can balance itself. The neck position is related to strength, or amounts of collection.

                                To say the horse should put it where I want ignores this.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I agree with elegant E, my horse goes in a training/1st level frame. He is not ready for more collection that 2nd level ask for and isn't ready for a higher contact. Just to hard for him right now. I can force it but forcing it does not make it correct.
                                  Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by rabicon View Post
                                    I agree with elegant E, my horse goes in a training/1st level frame. He is not ready for more collection that 2nd level ask for and isn't ready for a higher contact. Just to hard for him right now. I can force it but forcing it does not make it correct.
                                    Yes, but he should be able to either do a stretchy circle upon request or hold his training/1st frame without rein support depending upon what you are asking.

                                    It is not like we ride around carrying the horse's front end around until all of a sudden at 3rd we let go both reins in the canter.
                                    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                    Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                    Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                    The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      He will stay where I put him, but I can't put him where he is not ready to be. I was just answering to the idea that your horses neck should be where you put it, I can put it where I want but it doesn't make it correct
                                      Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by rabicon View Post
                                        He will stay where I put him, but I can't put him where he is not ready to be. I was just answering to the idea that your horses neck should be where you put it, I can put it where I want but it doesn't make it correct
                                        Do you really think that what is being advocated here is:
                                        "Your horse should put his neck where you want it. If you want a GP level frame from your 4yo just carry him around by the back teeth and hang on tight."?

                                        Really?
                                        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X