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Question about scoring

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  • Question about scoring

    I was looking at a test the other day, and the rider had several about equal 7's and 6's on all of the movements, and one 5 (not a X2 movement). Then when I looked at the collective scores, the horse had a 5 on gaits, 5 on impulsion, 4 on submission, and the rider had a 5 on her seat.

    Is this possible? I have to admit that I have not sat through a judges forum, so that is why I am asking. I have seen higher collective scores than what a rider got on movements, but never the other way around.

    I did watch the test. It was a fairly nice test. The horse was pretty much responsive to the rider, I didn't see any kind of blow - up or blatant disregard for his rider, it was a pleasant test.

  • #2
    No, that is poor judging. Was it a recognized show?

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      No, It was just a schooling show. And an L Judge. I am not too worried, but the rider was a little discouraged, so I would like to be able to give her some opinions to back mine up, or to disprove mine.

      She thought her horse did wonderful - honestly it was his first time out, and she was shocked that her test went so smoothly, so she is beating herself up about this one thinking she doesn't know what she is doing because she really thought it was a great test. And I admit I was feeling that way a little bit as her trainer.

      I don't ever want to tell a youth rider that the judge is wrong, as I just think that develops poor sportsmanship, but I am having a hard time explaining this one to her.

      Comment


      • #4
        Now i have gotten 8 and 9's on test but usually 7's and 8's and we get 6 or 7 on imp. (depending on the day.) 7 for submission, 6 or 7 for rider (depending on the day ) and usually 6 or 7's on gaits. So we are always scoring lower than the moments in the test and that is also at rated shows. So I confused, have I shown under 50 bad judges Now in my canter we get 6's and sometimes 5's because he tends to run and hollow (now its better for this year : )) and the walk we get 6's so could that do it?
        Last edited by rabicon; Mar. 17, 2010, 01:28 PM.
        Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

        Comment


        • #5
          That sounds downright insane--the collectives are supposed to more or less reflect what was going on in the test. It almost sounds as if at the last minute, looking over the scores, the judge realized that the score was going to be higher than what he/she thought it merited, and decided to "adjust" it with the coefficients. It's hard to believe even an L graduate would do this, though, given the education they should have received from the program (my husband's going through the program, and we've discussed this issue).

          It does raise the issue of what the judge does when they realize they've scored a ride too high throughout for whatever reason (maybe only noticing impure gaits or something like that late in the test)--seems it would have been better to adjust a few of the movement scores down and go with 6s on the coefficients, though. As it is, it makes the judge look pretty incompetent.

          From the L Program Session C handout:

          "The Collective Marks should be a reflection of the entire test and a summary of the performance of horse and rider. The average percentage of the collective marks should be in the same range as the average
          percentage of all marks given in the body of the test.

          The Collective Marks are very important because they make up approximately 36% of the total score at Training level, 34% at First level and 26% at Second Level.

          It is permitted to give a higher score in the collectives than you did in the body of the test." (my emphasis)

          There is also a list of acceptable reasons for giving a lower rider score than the average of the movement scores:

          "Suggested for seat/position:

          Deduct 2-3 points for falling off, bouncing out of the saddle, abuse.
          Deduct 1 point if seat/position interferes with horse’s movement or performance, but is not abusive.
          No deduction if rider sits well enough with Center of Gravity over Base of
          Support, but is not especially effective.
          Add 1-2 points if rider’s seat/position is balanced and enhances horses
          performance.

          Suggested for correctness/effect of aids:

          Deduct 2-3 points for abuse.
          Deduct 1 point for excessive, conflicting or obvious aids.
          No deduction for moderate, but non enhancing aids.
          Add 1-2 points if rider’s well timed and subtle aids that enhance the performance of a horse that lacks quality of gaits or is unsure about its surroundings."

          So basically, if your student didn't fall off, bounce out of the saddle, or abuse the horse, a rider score of 5 in a test of 6s and 7s is out of line.
          Last edited by littlemanor; Mar. 17, 2010, 12:56 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            What level was the test?

            The score that really sticks out is the 4 for submission. I can see a horse getting 5 for gaits and a rider getting 5 for seat but still getting 6 & 7 for movements at intro or training - but a submission of 4 is pretty hard to reconcile under those circumstances unless the horse had great gaits and the rider was stellar.

            What were the comments like?

            It's okay to say to your rider, "I don't understand what she is seeing, but we'll see what the next judge says."
            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

            Comment


            • #7
              Mine have been under L, r, R, and I. But I have been told on test that the canter is what kills our gait scores. Mine are in training and one 1st level test so far.
              Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

              Comment


              • #8
                I would wonder all the what were the other marks. Something seems missing.

                I would also wonder what was the horse doing and what was the rider doing between the lines for the lower scores on the collectives. A couple of marks doesn't make a whole picture. You can get a decent score on movments if the horse settles into it but it wasn't correct in the beginning or the end.

                What were the comments on the lower scores?

                Littlemanor, that is a great addition...sheds some light.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks, JRG--very useful to have the L handouts handy on my computer, gives me a great excuse to procrastinate on getting my work done!

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    I do not have the test in front of me now, but it was an intro test. I do remember a 7 on both center lines, the free walk, and one trot circle. The other marks were 6's, and the one 5 was maybe on her last trot circle to the right.

                    it is a green horse, but did not do anything in the transitions or any obvious submission problem - really wish it was videotaped.

                    Comment was nice horse, needs to develop more consistent connection.

                    Under impulsion it may have said sluggish at times - that may have been another ride though.

                    Certainly a 5 on seat was fair, as the rider has been riding for 1 month after a year off when her last horse was diagnosed with inoperable ethmoid hematomas.


                    I know it is so hard to say without seeing the test, I am just wondering if people have generally seen such a difference between the movement scores, and the collective marks, as I have not.

                    littlemanor - that was very helpful, thank you!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There definitely seems to be a disconnect between the collective marks and the rest of the test. I think the most helpful would be to review the judge's remarks at the end of the test. Also, encourage your student to wait for a break and talk to the judge - it is a schooling show and everyone is there to learn.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I was waiting on Banner to answer to compare. I'll post one of my test, with everything from 8's to 5's.

                        training 2
                        enter and halt 8
                        C track right B circle 20 M 8
                        KXM change rein 6 loss of rhythm woops
                        bw/c and H canter left lead 5 needs prep
                        E circle left 20 m 5 loosing rhythm
                        bw/E and K trot 5 needs prep hollow
                        A med. walk 7
                        FXM free walk 6 needs energy (he thinks this is a break )
                        M C med walk 7
                        C trot 7
                        E circle left 20 M 7
                        FXH change rein 6 loosing impulsion after X (this is when we went thru a spell that he thought he was suppose to stop at X on diag. We got over that though)
                        bw/C M right lead canter 5 resistance late canter
                        B circle right 20M 6 needs better balance
                        bw/B and F trot 6 needs prep hollow
                        x halt 8
                        We were all over the place
                        gaits 6
                        impulsion 7
                        submission 6
                        rider 7
                        So when you are so all over the board is it okay to have the lower gaits and sub. scores even though the like some work with 8 and 7's??
                        (this is not a typical test, but our canter did suck, usually our trot work is 7's and 8's never 6's but we had a bad day ) any opionions, I'd love to understand more about the judging
                        Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Rabicon, I think the situation in the OP is very different from what you're reporting. The movements were all 7s and 6s (one 5), yet the collective marks were two 5s and a 4 for submission. The question in the OP basically is how do you score better than 65% in the movements with "insufficient" (4) submission and "marginal" (5) riding?
                          Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Rabicon,

                            I have had many tests like that - but I think the average of your movement scores and collective scores are fairly close. Your highest score was an 8, you had four 5's, and several 6's and 7's.

                            On this particular test, the average of movement scores were over 65, and the average of the collective scores were under 50.

                            There was one 5, no 4's, yet collectives were 5's and one 4.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks guys, and Banner I wasn't trying to hijack your thread sorry but you really got me thinking about it. I've learned a lot in the past 2 1/2 years of doing this but never really thought about the judging so much. So I understand that since my jumped all over the place that it averaged out gotcha. thanks so much.
                              Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Generally speaking the low(est) general impression score should highlight/lowlight the best/worst of what is shown throughout the test. If the horse were steadily slightly curled or slightly hollowing (or whatever), that weakness (or conversely a paticular strength/gait) MUST be noted throughout the test, and that could be a reason to give an insufficient for that general impression (ie submission). A rider can ride a round circle with basic bending and for a moment have a high point (ie 6/ or 7), and then fall back into a mediocre ride with no high/low points. However, imho there would have to be a score (or more) where the insufficiency was noted in the body of the test, to give a 4 in the g.impressions. And, so yes, it could happen. What a (less educated) viewer sees, and what a judge sees may be two different things, the comments would/should explain it.
                                I.D.E.A. yoda

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Banner View Post
                                  I was looking at a test the other day, and the rider had several about equal 7's and 6's on all of the movements, and one 5 (not a X2 movement). Then when I looked at the collective scores, the horse had a 5 on gaits, 5 on impulsion, 4 on submission, and the rider had a 5 on her seat.

                                  Is this possible? I have to admit that I have not sat through a judges forum, so that is why I am asking. I have seen higher collective scores than what a rider got on movements, but never the other way around.

                                  I did watch the test. It was a fairly nice test. The horse was pretty much responsive to the rider, I didn't see any kind of blow - up or blatant disregard for his rider, it was a pleasant test.
                                  Ideally the test scores would come out to similar % as the collective scores. For example if your test body is in 60%, collective scores should also add up in the 60% range.

                                  With out seeing your test, it's hard to say if your judge was too generous with the body of the test scores or she was too stingy with the collective marks. But there is a definite disconnect according to your post.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                                    Generally speaking the low(est) general impression score should highlight/lowlight the best/worst of what is shown throughout the test.

                                    (SNIP)

                                    imho there would have to be a score (or more) where the insufficiency was noted in the body of the test, to give a 4 in the g.impressions. And, so yes, it could happen. What a (less educated) viewer sees, and what a judge sees may be two different things, the comments would/should explain it.
                                    Comments didn't seem to back up some of the judge's scores. I was the show manager. However, we had an inexperienced scribe -- she got replaced after a few rides -- start out the day. I don't know if that rattled the judge and he wasn't able to get all his comments written down. Overall I was not satisfeid with the judging as there seemed to be a discrepancy such as Banner reported. It's disappointing when it's a YR/JR who doesn't have the experience to realize that this is just one ride under one judge. As a show (schooling shows) manager I'd love to know how I could/should have properly addressed this with the judge without putting him on the defensive and at what point in the day.
                                    Susan B.
                                    http://canterberrymeadows.com/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I'm curious...if the collective scores are essentially supposed to be same as the scores for the rest of the test, what's the purpose of them? Why do they make up such a high percentage of your score if it's apparently just a regurgitation of the average of the scores from the body of your test?

                                      I'm sorry if this is a terribly stupid question, it really just doesn't make much sense to me when it's stated that way
                                      "Last time I picked your feet, you broke my toe!"

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by NCSue View Post
                                        As a show (schooling shows) manager I'd love to know how I could/should have properly addressed this with the judge without putting him on the defensive and at what point in the day.
                                        You can ask a judge during the break or lunch or after the show questions about judging and tests. You can also email a judge after the show as well. If riders have questions it is OK for show management to approach a judge and ask those questions.

                                        It is a schooling show and feedback is the most important.

                                        That said, inexperienced scribes really, really make it quite difficult to do the best job that a judge can do. A judge end up paying more attention to a scribe, who is lost, has questions, missed the movements etc, etc,... At times, if your scribe missed a movement or a judge missed a movement b/c a judge was answering scribe's question: judge is obligated to give an automatic 6/7 score for the missed movement for the benefit of the rider. Some times, a beginner scribe can find herself 4 movements behind, panic sets in, but the test is still going on and more and more movements are missed. If judge is experienced, she/her can write in up to the ½ of the tests scores even after the test, b/c most experienced judges have a photographic memory and remember the ride/score/comments that they gave. But that comes with practice.

                                        Scribes bring up to 50% to the judging table. Scribes can make or brake a not experienced judge

                                        Comment

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