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FEI Roundtable results on Rollkur

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  • #81
    And that is the absolute beauty of relabelling hyperflexion LDR. Long, Deep and Round, a technique anyone can use, with the correct gadgetry of course.

    Wondering how soon we are going to see LDR training books and videos now that the rollkur posture has been legitimized by the FEI.

    And notice, not a word about research, not one. So, the same posture (rollkur/Hyperflexion = Sjeff LDR) that Dr.Heuschmann said did not require force since a 125lb woman could exert 1,000 of pressure on the poll when pulling the head in at a specific angle, well that posture that needed to be studied to establish conclusively if it did or did not impact airways, vision, brain cooling, osseification of the upper cervical spine and sacrum, the neurological system, the mind an behavior of horses, that posture will not be studied.


    I would have been very happy if all that came out of that meeting was a commitment on Haya's part to provide a budget for research by 3rd parties.
    I am confident enough in my understanding of the horse's body to think the anti-rollkur/hyperflexion/LDR techniques would have had to be dismissed eventually.

    I also thought that with research we had a common ground between pros and antis. Because as many have pointed out here, we all love our horses and if it was proven conclusively that these techniques affect even one area of the horse's health, I know many pros would look for safer techniques.

    There had to be a reason why for five years now at every discussion on this subject the FEI would vaguely speak of needing research and why yesterday the whole issue was neatly put to bed an research was not mentioned.


    It appears that the kudos around the room are in great part due to the British Horse Welfare society pushing an animal welfare agenda - everyone agreed that violent and unfair riders should be penalized regardless of head and neck position.

    Well, duh, was that not already outlined in the rule book before?

    This is one big joke.

    Comment


    • #82
      Karoline the same scientific points were used 30 years ago as scientific proof why classical dressage should be banned. Ossification, breathing, vision, etc. The exact same points, the exact same bony changes, all of the points, being used today to argue hyperflexion/rollkur should be banned.

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by slc2 View Post
        Karoline the same scientific points were used 30 years ago as scientific proof why classical dressage should be banned. Ossification, breathing, vision, etc. The exact same points, the exact same bony changes, all of the points, being used today to argue hyperflexion/rollkur should be banned.
        Interesting! Where was this research published?

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by Karoline View Post
          It appears that the kudos around the room are in great part due to the British Horse Welfare society pushing an animal welfare agenda - everyone agreed that violent and unfair riders should be penalized regardless of head and neck position.

          Well, duh, was that not already outlined in the rule book before?
          Oh dear. So what means are available to stewards to tell whether a horse is being ridden aggressively, other than via subjective assessment?

          Continuous rein tension measurement - technically feasible - might be one way. That could indicate whether a horse had been "socked in the mouth". It could also flag up excessive force - a large force being applied for too long a time. Having feedback about how much force a rider is using, and being able to compare to other riders, might open some eyes and foster a climate of striving for lightness. A bit Brave New Worldly, I know, but in practice it needn't be very intrusive at all.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by mp
            I saw someone who puts her money and her actions where her mouth is. I did it for my breed association and I'd do the same for dressage if had the passion for it that you claim to have.
            Is there an anti-RK fund or organisation that accepts donations to campaign for reform and re-education?

            I regularly donate to equine welfare charities (every month by direct debit) and would willingly give a little of my hard-earned cash to stop extreme RK being used - if I was convinced it could be done, of course.

            (I am anti animal rights.)

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by fburton View Post
              Oh dear. So what means are available to stewards to tell whether a horse is being ridden aggressively, other than via subjective assessment?

              Continuous rein tension measurement - technically feasible - might be one way. That could indicate whether a horse had been "socked in the mouth". It could also flag up excessive force - a large force being applied for too long a time. Having feedback about how much force a rider is using, and being able to compare to other riders, might open some eyes and foster a climate of striving for lightness. A bit Brave New Worldly, I know, but in practice it needn't be very intrusive at all.
              My opinion, if RK is damaging to a horse, well, if you want to do any studies, start with the basics.
              First, what does it do to a horse to even be domesticated and live under our management?
              Then, what does to a horse when we start it teaching it to give with a halter, moving around on the ground the ways we require them to, longing and so on and then, the horror putting someone on it's poor back?

              I would think that alone is breaking more ethical eggs than RK ever did, if you want to find studies, I am sure there are plenty already showing that.

              There are consequences to any action and in us using horses in any way we are already causing changes that some may assert are not in the best interest of the horses.

              Now, anything alive is going to live under stresses of all kinds, that is what happens when you are alive.
              When humans are using horses, we know it is not "the best for them", or should know that, if we ever gave that a thought.
              We are doing the best we can do, for our purposes and know it won't be ideal, just by us using them.

              When you put all we do with horses in perspective, then you may decide what is use and what abuse.

              In the big picture, I think that RK seems to be one more way we use horses, more or less adequate it may be considered as a technique to hyprestretch so it may perform better.
              Abusive, aggressive? As with anything we do, I say it is in the application that you may say it is more or less used appropiatedly.

              Needing studies to determine if it is harmless?
              As I said, I think that any studies will show it doesn't has any different effect than any other we do with horses.
              In some basic way, as in just sitting on a horse's back while it is doing what we ask, I would say the studies would show it is not any worse than just sitting on it's back.
              Ask any athlete hyperstretching to prepare for any task and you will have your answer about what it accomplishes, it is a well known technique.

              Now, if you are talking about the aesthetics of RK, well, then it depends on what you consider "pretty" if you will "like" RK or take offense to it.
              I guess that you need an artistic temperament to become offended at that look, if you don't like it, when someone is hyperstretching their horse in a warm up ring, minding their own business.
              Ever watch dancers, gymnasts, pole vaulters, etc. hyperstretching in warm up before a performance? I don't see people wincing at that?
              Most people would just be warming their own horse and not worrying about what others do or not, as long as no one is beating a horse over the head with a 2x4, which would then be definitely consider abuse.

              I think the FEI is handling this tempest in a teapot very well.

              Comment


              • #87
                We've removed a large quantity of posts to tone down the personal commentary/bickering. Please keep the thread focused on the main topic and take private exchanges to PM.

                Thanks,
                Mod 1

                Comment


                • #88
                  Check it out the press release now says.

                  Following constructive debate at the FEI round-table conference at the IOC Headquarters in Lausanne today (9 February), the consensus of the group was that any head and neck position of the horse achieved through aggressive force is not acceptable. The group redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horse’s neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable. The technique known as Long, Deep and Round (LDR), which achieves flexion without undue force, is acceptable.

                  Low has been changed to Long.. Is this a typo or does it mean that the nose on the chest can never been seen as Long, Deep, and Round? Although how can a horse be Long, Deep and Round at the same time or is what Haddad is showing in her video blog Long, Deep and Round.

                  http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre...le-9Feb10.aspx
                  “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by KarinAsbak
                    The same girl who made the mistake in the 2006 FEI press release.
                    So which is correct? First press release said Low, Deep and Round and now it says Long, Deep and Round so someone deliberately changed it.
                    “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Peace View Post
                      So which is correct? First press release said Low, Deep and Round and now it says Long, Deep and Round so someone deliberately changed it.
                      Maybe English isn't their first language.
                      __________________________
                      "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                      the best day in ten years,
                      you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by mp View Post
                        Maybe English isn't their first language.
                        Understand that but the press release was correct so then they went in and changed one word Low to Long and then changed it back...kinda odd since it has always been refered as Low, Deep and round. Just glad they clairfied.
                        “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by fburton View Post
                          Is there an anti-RK fund or organisation that accepts donations to campaign for reform and re-education?

                          I regularly donate to equine welfare charities (every month by direct debit) and would willingly give a little of my hard-earned cash to stop extreme RK being used - if I was convinced it could be done, of course.

                          (I am anti animal rights.)

                          Coming to you soon, I believe...different groups have projects in the hopper.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            That was meant as a joke.

                            I'm betting it was a typo. That happens, you know. Even with people whose native tongue is English.
                            __________________________
                            "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                            the best day in ten years,
                            you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              LONG was an editorial TYPO per FEI media spokseperson

                              Originally posted by Peace View Post
                              Check it out the press release now says.

                              Following constructive debate at the FEI round-table conference at the IOC Headquarters in Lausanne today (9 February), the consensus of the group was that any head and neck position of the horse achieved through aggressive force is not acceptable. The group redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horse’s neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable. The technique known as Long, Deep and Round (LDR), which achieves flexion without undue force, is acceptable.

                              Low has been changed to Long.. Is this a typo or does it mean that the nose on the chest can never been seen as Long, Deep, and Round? Although how can a horse be Long, Deep and Round at the same time or is what Haddad is showing in her video blog Long, Deep and Round.

                              http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre...le-9Feb10.aspx
                              It is actually very nice to know the FEI is looking at the BBs for feedback.
                              A similar mistake was made by a journalist in an interview with Dr.Heushmann and was corrected. There is no conspiracy here.

                              http://www.ultimatedressage.com/foru...p?f=1&t=179666


                              "Hello, I'm Malina Gueorguiev, FEI Press Manager, and I have been following with great interest your discussion.

                              I wanted to let you know that the low, deep and round (LDR) training technique, providing it achieves flexion without undue force, was approved as acceptable by the participants at the round-table conference. The term “low” was used in the press statement sent out after the meeting and in FEI Dressage Director Trond Asmyr’s video message posted on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ZxIYMeojE, but a typo resulted in “low” being changed to “long” on the FEI website. This has now been corrected to reflect the decision taken by the participants in the round-table conference. Check it out http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre/Ne ... Feb10.aspx"

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Originally posted by Karoline View Post
                                It is actually very nice to know the FEI is looking at the BBs for feedback.

                                http://www.ultimatedressage.com/foru...p?f=1&t=179666



                                "Hello, I'm Malina Gueorguiev, FEI Press Manager, and I have been following with great interest your discussion.

                                I wanted to let you know that the low, deep and round (LDR) training technique, providing it achieves flexion without undue force, was approved as acceptable by the participants at the round-table conference. The term “low” was used in the press statement sent out after the meeting and in FEI Dressage Director Trond Asmyr’s video message posted on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ZxIYMeojE, but a typo resulted in “low” being changed to “long” on the FEI website. This has now been corrected to reflect the decision taken by the participants in the round-table conference. Check it out http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre/Ne ... Feb10.aspx"

                                Again I don't understand how a typo could take place when the press release was already written I wouldn't think they would have to re-type it to get it on their site...Oh well good to see they clairfied.
                                “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by Karoline View Post
                                  Coming to you soon, I believe...different groups have projects in the hopper.
                                  If those groups were smart they would all get together take those 45,000 signatures and ask PETA to get involved. I know many don't like AR groups but if they want results you need power and they got it.
                                  “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Does anyone else find it kind of humorous that a rider can call a technique they use by the same 3 words and put capital letters on them and now it is a Technique? I am going to "patent" my own riding technique. Time to brainstorm. How about Awkward, Bouncy, and Stiff? Slouchy, Squishy, and Crooked? Out of Shape and Aging?

                                    Sorry, that whole LDR thing struck me funny for a minute. I'm Anky, I do LDR! Put it in the glossary!
                                    Fear is the rocket sauce.
                                    Jack Black

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by Peace View Post
                                      If those groups were smart they would all get together take those 45,000 signatures and ask PETA to get involved. I know many don't like AR groups but if they want results you need power and they got it.
                                      I think the ONE thing we all agree on is that introducing PETA in this debate would be a catastrophy. Riders and horses will get hurt. The goal is not to destroy riding, it is to support the FEI in upholding existing rules and promoting existing traditional, humane training that encourages riders to ride according to the spirit of 401 all of the time, not just in shows.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        FYI:
                                        Translation of CAVALLO interview with Gerd Heuschmann

                                        " A big step toward animal protection" No alibi meeting: Yesterday’s FEI meeting on Hyperflexion and Rollkur is rated as a success. In the interview Dr. Gerd Heuschmann explains the calm resolutions.

                                        CAVALLO: You participated in the FEI Rountable discussion. What did the meeting achieve?

                                        Dr. Gerd Heuschmann: It was a very good meeting. The FEI President, Princess Haya, left no doubt that the world rider federation is looking for solutions. That was not meeting to establish an alibi, but rather a strenuous discussion. Despite the heterogeneity of the participants - the representatives of the different riding disciplines who were present - we really got somewhere.

                                        What was established that can be applied in practice?

                                        For one thing, we clarified how the terms Hyperflexion and Rollkur and LDR (Low, Deep and Round) are defined on the international level. We agreed – and this is a big achievement – that Hyperflexion and Rollkur have negative effects on the horse’s health and are understood as being achieved through aggressive riding, which will no longer be tolerated as of now.
                                        We defined the LDR method as tolerable. We started with the assumption that a horse can assume a low position (of the head and neck), but only if this happens without force. I personally don’t find this to be the correct foundation for dressage training, but for us the (implied) success for the animal protection campaign takes precedence.

                                        Wherein does this success lie exactly?

                                        Beginning immediately, we said good-bye yesterday to aggressive riding, which is flatly condemned. In the future, eyes will no longer be closed toward violent anger and unfair behavior directed at horses at competition venues. We’re working out how to give Stewards a helping hand (in this department).
                                        On this basis, warnings can be issued in the warm-up ring. That was supported by all disciplines. Tieing the horse into knots with rolled up necks is rejected. That alone, if you look at the list of participants, is a real breakthrough.

                                        Does that also mean that Rollkur supports must revise their thinking?

                                        That’s right. We now have created a foundation on the basis of which it is possible to draw a very clear line. Stewards must be trained to carry out this decision. And all competitors must be clear as to whether they fall into the positive or negative – and therefore unallowable – range.
                                        Stewards today are still afraid to correct someone in the warm-up. That has to change. We have to put judges on the side of the Stewards to strengthen their position.

                                        Your bottom line on this meeting?

                                        We found the greatest possible common denominator. That is a huge success in view of the way this committee is composed. Therefore I say: We have made an enormous step forward on animal protection. The world rider federation understood that the sport has a fundamental problem that must be solved. And that it’s not just about damage control with regard to our image.
                                        I'm so glad to read his positive response to this meeting. I also feel that the step was made towards the correct direction. That the compromise started. It may take years and many more steps to achieve the ideal balance in the competition, but it's a step towards it!

                                        Congratulations to all who cared and spend their time and emotions toward this meeting.

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