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Do you practice Rollkur?

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  • Do you practice Rollkur?

    COTHers, do you practice, ride, train Rollkur method? Do you do it at home or at the warm ups or at clinics? For how many years?

    *********
    Can you post a video of "correct" rollkur?

    When Deep becomes Rollkur?

    Why and when it is necessary to absolutely close the neck and held the horse for the prolonged periods of time in the hyper flexion beyond the natural flexion of the neck of the horse?

    *********
    Originally posted by Beasmom View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM

    Carl Hester. As the warmup progresses the horse is definitely LDR with poll not the highest place.

    Looks OK to me. I present this as a sample of "good" LDR.

    Originally posted by mbm View Post
    if everyone is saying that they think what is shown in the video is rollkur - we aren't even talking about the same thing. AT ALL.

    here is what i consider rollkur

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuXQD...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5pH5...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmn...eature=channel
    This is the example of rollkur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4 This is quite different from Carl Hester video that you posted. And this is the responce form the ride in this video:

    "Patrik Kittel was called up on the telephone before we ran the story. However, Mr. Kittel did not wish to comment beyond a reference to his lawyers and a statement that he believes he is using the method, hyperflexion of the neck, in the correct way and so also in accordance with the FEI Code of Conduct. "

    I hope that most horse people can see the difference of those videos and can see the difference of riding Deep verses riding hyperflexion/rollkur/ldr?

    Otherwise the whole conversation is pointless and rollkur will always be hiding behind the Deep Method...
    Last edited by Dressage Art; Feb. 1, 2010, 08:26 PM.

  • #2
    3,493 posts and you don't know where this train's a'goan?

    Oh. You do. That’s the point.

    Pointless thread.
    Dismissed.
    "Dressage" is just a fancy word for flatwork

    Comment


    • #3
      This is like asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

      Pffffft.

      Comment


      • #4
        DA - Disappointed you would bring this up. This has been hotly discussed, debated, argued, hashed, rehashed and bashed around already. Ad nauseam. Please withdraw the thread and save our sanity.
        Practice! Patience! Persistence!
        http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
        https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          And I'm disappointed that you are not voicing your opinion for the welfare of the horse. Rollkur is not banned at the warm-up yet, but it should be, so it's not discussed enough yet.

          Go pick on a Rollkurista. I'm not one.
          I'm trying to find out! So who is this Rollkurista? How many do we have here? How far did Rollkur take them/you?

          If people who are supporting/arguing in favor of Rollkur, stand for their training methods = they will not have any issues of answering those questions.

          If they/you do not practice Rollkur = why do you support and argue in favor of Rollkur?

          Are you ashamed to admit that you practice Rollkur?
          Last edited by Dressage Art; Jan. 25, 2010, 02:20 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't get your rationale?? do you think folks will gladly jump up and say- Oh yes I am a Rollkurista? Do you think folks have not gotten the message yet?

            Those that truly study will know that there are elements of rollkur (not those ugly photos by golly) that are beneficial and they are only to certain horses and under certain conditions...does anyone here ride like Anky? Hell NO- because if they did- WE would own dressage and not the Dutch...haha!!

            In other words my dear...there is no rollkur here- maybe some really bad rollkur but not the effective rollkur that wins Olympic medals and World Cups- so therefore let it go in peace. The really bad rollkur is just like the really bad jumping or the really bad natural horsemanship or the really bad western training...it turns your gut inside out and it doesn't seem peaceful or respectful of the horse.

            NOBODY WANTS THAT!
            done with that subject...go back - read some more and don't think you can change dressage by posting a thread like this. You can only change it by riding better- cleaner and more effectively - one day at a time- while respecting the horse and KNOWING HOW TO TRAIN- which you will learn with reading and practice and exchanging experiences with similar minded friends...

            best to you!
            "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

            Comment


            • #7
              3,493 posts and you don't know where this train's a'goan?

              Oh. You do. That’s the point.

              Pointless thread.
              Dismissed.
              Exactly.

              Filed in Bored/ Night Posting/Adult Beverages.

              Comment


              • #8
                Quote: "Those that truly study will know that there are elements of rollkur (not those ugly photos by golly) that are beneficial and they are only to certain horses and under certain conditions..."

                But that's just it, Sabine. Study how? Where are the books? The DVD's? Interviews? Magazine articles? Clinics? When, how, what, where, why to train with hyperflexion? Or LDR? Heck, we don't even know its name. What is bad hyperflexion? What is good hyperflexion? Should the neck be lifting from the withers? Straight out? Down? What throatlatch angle? Combined with how much impulsion? Additionally, some Olympic riders have used the "force" word in reference to LDR. So how are we to uncritically accept a training method which, in its exclusivity , more and more comes to resemble a cult practise?
                Just asking.
                Last edited by alicen; Jan. 25, 2010, 07:33 AM. Reason: word choice

                Comment


                • #9
                  You're not going to get a technical discussion of hyperflexion here. Just an emotional one.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Do a poll, then

                    i agree it looks like you are just trying to get folks going again. If that is not the case, why wouldn't you have done a poll?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Who was saying we should not compete "ugly"?

                      We should also not feed "ugly" witch hunts either.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Polls are not exactly free of hyperflexion fur flying either. People vote, and then post, ya know.

                        I honestly don't feel it's a subject that can be discussed in a balanced way here, technically, unemotionally, without descending into name calling, accusations and emotional tirades. Those in favor start the chest beating tune, 'It Wins, You're Dumb' and the not in favors start with the even more familiar, well known rockin' base riff of 'It's Abuse, You're Dumb'.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Honestly, the whole hyperflexion debate saddens me to no end, not because of the issue itself but because it shows up the biggest travesty of modern day dressage - it seems that very few of us are truly interested in pursuing the art/sport with scientific curiosity, intellectual integrity and philosophic dedication, and attempting to further the knowledge of the great masters of prior generations. Instead we would rather place ourselves in camps of Pro-this and Anti-that and champion a few soundbites we picked up somewhere. THAT, in my view, is a bigger threat to dressage than we've seen for decades, or maybe centuries.

                          I'm wracking my brain trying to come up with some good theoretical dressage questions to pose to the board, in the hope that we could have an edifying and civil discussion.... but everything i come up with is potentially a target for the flinging about of these pet-issue diatribes. See I would love to discuss the technical merits of intermitent hyperflexion for muscular development, and would be interested in healthy informed debate, but I won't even try because all we'll end up with is "omigod-that-poor-horse's-nose-has-been-wrestled-to-its-chest-it-cant-breathe-and-its-not-pretty" and on the flip side "you-aren't-qualified-to-comment-because-that-level-of-training-is-so-far-beyond-you-so-what-do-you-know". Please, can anyone come up with some good philosophic conversations we can have and post them, so that you all can show me that i'm just a crotchety old cynic and it's really not so bad....?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No, it is that bad, but what is 'that bad', is the internet. Even reasonable, normal people don't appear that way once they saddle up and get on the internet. This isn't the place to come for what you want, Bay horse.

                            To an extent, dressage is a 'passion sport'. Passions simply run very high. Even....EVEN...off the internet.

                            If you want to learn, go to a dressage trainer. Hopefully a good one.

                            The best way to learn about it, would be go to a bunch of trainers who use hyperflexion, and ride with them, then go to a bunch of people who don't use it, ride with them, and compare. Neither camp is likely to do that, because they feel too strongly about it to do that.

                            I do know one person that has, though. Sjef jensen (sp).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I do. First, I put my horse in a bitting rig in a hyperflexion frame for 5 hours in his stall. This loosens up his neck. Then I ride him for 2-3 hours/day. I keep his chin within 4" of his chest at all times. Then for the last 5 minutes, I pop him in the mouth with the curb rein a few times to bring him up into a show ring frame. Of course I have to kick like mad with my rowel spurs when I do this. This training method is what gets me all my blue ribbons because the judges are all blind incomptent fools.
                              "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." - The Little Prince

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by retrofit View Post
                                I do. First, I put my horse in a bitting rig in a hyperflexion frame for 5 hours in his stall. This loosens up his neck. Then I ride him for 2-3 hours/day. I keep his chin within 4" of his chest at all times. Then for the last 5 minutes, I pop him in the mouth with the curb rein a few times to bring him up into a show ring frame. Of course I have to kick like mad with my rowel spurs when I do this. This training method is what gets me all my blue ribbons because the judges are all blind incomptent fools.
                                LOL, you beat me to it. ;P

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I agree with other posts that you can not have a proper discussion on something so emotional here. Even though I can not see where hyperflexion would fit in my training, I thought that Anky had a perfectly logical explanation for why she uses it.

                                  I feel for her that she gets attacked at every turn when I see much worse going on in the amateur warm up ring on a regular basis.

                                  I like to bend a horse using the inside rein past their tension to get them on the bit. It does not look pretty when I do it but it is sound training and the horse learns that the outside rein is the happy place. I am sure to an untrained eye that it looks awful but I can assure you that it does not hurt the horse. The over bending accomplishes teaching the horse the outside rein and to use it for support. If I had to explain myself every time I over-bent a horse to put him on the outside rein I would go insane.

                                  I would like to see real evidence to the effect of the practical use of hyperflection to improve the horse. And I would like to see veterinary study's of it's effects on the anatomy by impartial parties.
                                  Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death.
                                  -Auntie Mame

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Tineke Bartel's book "Ride horses with awareness and feel" discusses the Dutch training method if you want to learn more about it. I do however think that "rollkur" is presented in a rather mild form in the book, but it is a good read and explains the whole training method quite well.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Obviously there is a "sliding scale" of Rollkur, from the mildly BTV position to the chin-on-chest position. What irks me is the apparent wholesale condemnation of ANY degree of BTV. At what point does it become abusive? I will agree COC looks uncomfortable at best, abusive at worst. When does BTV tip from a slight "violation" of the perfect standard to outright abusive and cruel?

                                      This is like arguing about how many angels can dance on a pinhead. Ir is it like the judge said about pornography? "You know it when you see it?"

                                      Beauty, and abuse, is in the eye of the beholder. No, I don't "support" Rollkur, but would I occasionally put a horse BTV? Sure I would -- momentarily, not long term.

                                      The problem with DA and her ilk is they are absolutists. All or nothing, black or white. And they remind me of religious zealots. There is no arguing with them, they have The Way, The Truth, and The Light.

                                      So be it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        alicen, I agree. Impossible to ask civil questions or have a discussion about this training continuem: Deep>>>>>>RK/Hyperflexion.

                                        The term Rollkur/Hyperflexion has come to encompass any deliberate BTV position of the head or "deep" positioning method all the way to the "chin strapped to the chest" extreme method.

                                        Ordinary "deep" positioning is one of the tools that many pros/upper level/elite riders use to work with certain horses.

                                        Is it any wonder that people who use deep training feel they will be hung out to dry as a "rollerkurist" and get defensive?

                                        So, perhaps more clarity regarding the terms Deep vs. Rollkur /Hyperflexion?

                                        It would be interesting to learn more about the benefits vs. bad side effects of both deep training and RK/HF.
                                        Because, to my way of thinking we are discussing apples and oranges here:
                                        Deep vs. RK/HF.


                                        Originally posted by alicen View Post
                                        Quote: "Those that truly study will know that there are elements of rollkur (not those ugly photos by golly) that are beneficial and they are only to certain horses and under certain conditions..."

                                        But that's just it, Sabine. Study how? Where are the books? The DVD's? Interviews? Magazine articles? Clinics? When, how, what, where, why to train with hyperflexion? Or LDR? Heck, we don't even know its name. What is bad hyperflexion? What is good hyperflexion? Should the neck be lifting from the withers? Straight out? Down? What throatlatch angle? Combined with how much impulsion? Additionally, some Olympic riders have used the "force" word in reference to LDR. So how are we to uncritically accept a training method which, in its exclusivity , more and more comes to resemble a cult practise?
                                        Just asking.

                                        Comment

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