• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Blast from the Past: Granat 1976 Olympics

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Blast from the Past: Granat 1976 Olympics


    I think this is how it should be....


  • #2
    he looked really hard in the hand in that test.


    • #3
      I will stick with today's dressage.
      Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive. Dalai Lama


      • Original Poster

        I dont see "hard in the hand" - altho i do see an elephant dancing....

        I agree it is nothing like todays dressage ....


        • #5
          Christine Stuckleberger schools all her horses in either draw reins or a double bridle. Always.


          • #6
            Always? As a student and then partner of Georg Vahl, an obereiter of the Spanish Riding School, she uses draw reins all the time? And a double?

            I don't think she schools all the time in a double bridle, as I have pictures of her schooling in the snaffle.

            Too, it might be deceptive to say 'she schools in the double all the time', as if that's rare and strange, as most FEI horses are schooled in the double a fair proportion of the time.


            • #7
              What I mean is that when she uses a snaffle, the draw reins go on. Otherwise she is in a double. I knew a working student of hers.


              • #8
                Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                Always? As a student and then partner of George Vahl, she uses draw reins all the time? And a double?

                I guess all those pictures of her schooling in a snaffle are an impostor?
                And do you really think that if your going to have your picture taken you are going to leave the draw reins on? I know Vahl is from the SRS, but he didn't exactly stick to the SRS ways when training competition horses.


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ridgeback View Post
                  I will stick with today's dressage.
                  I'll stick with today's commentators...YIkes.. listening to those commentating on the video makes one realize how far dressage has really come as a sport..


                  • #10
                    Same type of allegations were made on this thread


                    and Corinne Daep a long time groom of CS took the time to respond to Astrid A who had passed some questions to her (question was about CS's horse at the Olympics):

                    "....I have worked for Stückelberger and Wahl for over three years and they
                    never used any form of hyperflexion on any of their horses. There was never any form of disgraceful treatment over the years and I
                    would be happy people wouldn't spread gossip like that without knowing

                    I spent 3 days watching CS in Sonoma, CA a few years back and I dont believe for one minute she would be preaching one thing and doing another. She cared much more for the horses then the rider's feeling which did not make her popular (at that clinic). Also have her Paddock tape, wonderful teacher.


                    • #11
                      I never said she did hyperflexion or rollkur.


                      • #12
                        --Hyperflexion was only one thing the comment of the employee addressed:

                        There was never any form of disgraceful treatment over the years and I would be happy people wouldn't spread gossip like that without knowing

                        --'never any form of disgraceful treatment' pretty much covers the waterfront.

                        --And to be perfectly honest, I bet Christine Stuckelberger is skilled enough to use draw reins.

                        And do you really think that if your going to have your picture taken you are going to leave the draw reins on?

                        --Most riders have no control of when or what photographers take. People take pictures of riders at any and all times - in the ring, warming up, schooling between shows on the same show ground, even schooling at home. Even pictures behind the barn of daddy losing his temper. Dressage riders are out in public enough that most of what they do is public knowledge. Add in a few disgruntled customers or fired employees and there is all sorts of dirt about, some of it even true.

                        --And my pictures are of CS schooling in the snaffle, and she is not using draw rein with the snaffle. So there is one occasion when she is not doing it.

                        I know Vahl is from the SRS, but he didn't exactly stick to the SRS ways when training competition horses.

                        --In what way? Explain his methods.


                        • Original Poster

                          honestly - if draw reins created that kind of contact and that kind of self carriage - i may just rethink my opinion of them .


                          • #14
                            As a jumper, who makes NO claim to being able to judge Dressage, I think that ride was much more interesting for me to watch than much of the modern day dressage. I don't even know that I can fully explain what it IS that makes me like it more.....something about how the horses move, the way the test is ridden...the movements being more precise maybe?

                            Either way, I would ADORE having that horse (or one like him!) on my jumper string hee hee.
                            Horse Drawings!


                            • #15
                              Someone is always saying some top rider uses draw reins every ride or isn't any good or is mean. Someone always defends them, someone always accuses them. That's public life.

                              Ah, history. We do seem to forget it!

                              I remember certain prominent widely quoted experts making comments that were widely published at the time for all to read, about past greats such as: 'The horse looks like a strangled water buffalo', ah, the good old days, when the good old days were also always '20 years ago'.

                              My comment meant during that test he looked very strong, not that he or rider is bad. I just found it extremely ironic that mbm admired THAT video so much, because in it the horse is very, very strong in the bridle and she is always complaining about that in 'the competition riding of today'.

                              I could understand her putting up this:


                              Here, I think the horses aren't always 'perfectly light' and all work has some faults, major or minor, but the work overall, just basically has a more 'normal', less exaggerated look to it than some of the things we see today. I wish for 'the good old days' in that sense. If we could take some of the suppleness and add to it some of that just a little less exaggerated look, I think that would be 'progress'.

                              I think rather than blindly saying the first vid is perfect, I like to think, the balance is amazing, the horse is so collected, and so powerful, look at the muscle, the corners, the precision, the accuracy, well he does look incredibly strong in the bridle. And as trainer and rider said many times very publicly, 'yes he sure was'.

                              People with much more experience at that level probably say something like, well, nobody's perfect, but on the other hand, it was the Olympics and they did happen to do just a little bit better than everyone else who showed up.
                              Last edited by slc2; Dec. 29, 2009, 08:41 AM.


                              • #16
                                I think anyone that thinks CS would ever have ridden any horse in any way that was questionable just doesn't understand how people handled, rode and trained horses in those days.
                                People were professionals and very serious and the horse's wellbeing came first.
                                I can not even start to find words to say what I know of that time and how most good, serious horsemen trained horses and trained future trainers and all handled horses, without any nonsense permitted.

                                CS was, just like every serious rider, in no hurry to show anyone anything, too busy trying to perfect herself and any horse she rode, with patience and common sense.
                                How she managed the horses in competition shows it.
                                When you train those kinds of horses, they have a way to keep you humble and you can't do well if your ego gets in the way and you let the situations frustrate you, not at all.

                                In that environment, people were serious.
                                Granat was a terrific horse, in person seemed larger than life and like dynamite ready to explode, barely contained.
                                He was so limber that you really had to ride right to even keep him straight.
                                If he had been stiffer, he would have been much easier to ride, but at the same time, being that limber gave you the horse he was and at that time, he was one of the kind and when right, hard to beat.

                                CS was one of the nicest persons you may ever know or have the pleasure to work with, the kind you can learn from and not even know how much you are learning.
                                At the same time, you had to be there to learn and follow her direction, not try to make excuses.
                                You can have an opinion, but on her time, you need to follow her ways, because she truly knows better.
                                I can see why that may have brought grumbles in clinics in the USA.

                                Granat was one of a kind and the kind that, if a horse ever needed draw reins, something that few do, he was one, to give him some semblance of guidelines, above what the rider may, he was so overly limber of nature.
                                Draw reins are not needed that often and definitely not to overbend horses, but can be one more way to help some horses find steadiness.
                                Too bad that so many use them wrong all around.
                                You can't blame the tool for how people use or misuse it.

                                I think if some want to pick on someone, just to pick on someone, they have the wrong target on CS or Granat.


                                • #17
                                  I didn't bother listening to the commentary I watched the horse.

                                  He is a very strong horse and CS's style is to never allow him to come behind the vertical and drop the contact. She kept him right up into the bridle the whole time.

                                  Every half halt was met by the horse folding the hind leg under and lifting in front, staying in front of the vertical and not dropping the wither.

                                  Definitely the majority of the "todays" top horses are more athletic than Granat but what CS is asking of the horse is absolute quality work.

                                  The horse's response to collection is to lift his huge body in front and maintain engagement and an incredible degree of collection. His balance in the half passes (sad we don't get to see the trot ones) is brilliant. He is collected the whole time, not falling across like we so often see today.

                                  This isn't a horse that can fake anything. He doesn't have the freedom of the shoulder to throw the legs around, when he comes down the final centre line the lift in front is all from elevating the forehand. This horse is a "whole body mover" not a leg mover.

                                  And this is the type of dressage that can make every horse better as apposed to a training method that only suits certain horses.


                                  • #18
                                    I had to laugh when the female commentator remarked ... "wow! He's actually clearing the ground with his hind legs in this passage!! Usually horses sort of drag their hind legs during this movement.."

                                    I would say dressage has evolved since then....
                                    Siegi Belz
                                    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                                    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                                      I had to laugh when the female commentator remarked ... "wow! He's actually clearing the ground with his hind legs in this passage!! Usually horses sort of drag their hind legs during this movement.."

                                      I would say dressage has evolved since then....
                                      Kinda like figure skating who would want to watch the skaters from the 70's compared to the skaters of today..not me.
                                      Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive. Dalai Lama


                                      • #20
                                        wow, in 76 they were already pushing for the Kur....

                                        Since we are going 'old style':


                                        Parelli eat your heart out:


                                        and now I stop....