• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Horses For Life Article Rips FEI , Kittel, etc.

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Horses For Life Article Rips FEI , Kittel, etc.

    And I mean ripps !


  • #2
    Is it ripping when its true?


    • #3
      Especially when there is not only mounting evidence against the practice, but when two eyes (heck, even one squinty eye would do), a little biomechanical knowledge and sheer common sense can tell you there is something seriously wrong with the practice of Rollkur.
      You go, girl!

      Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.


      • #4
        like there's nothing wrong with WP, the horses just consistently look dead inside.


        • #5
          I am sure she has equally choice things to say about WP. And, in Western like in every other disciplines there is good and bad riding, and one hopes they also have riders who care enough to speak up agaisnt abhorrent training practices.


          • #6
            Thanks for keeping this in the public eye. I hope this is never left to fade away.
            "We don't ride the clock. We ride the horse." Reiner Klimke.


            • #7
              And Paul Belasik tells us why in his latest book, A Search For Collection:

              “The reason why you can’t pull a horse’s head down to his knees and hold it there is not only because the current science approves or disapproves. The reason why you can’t pull a horse’s head down to his knees and hold it there day after day, hour after hour, is the same reason why you can’t pull a man’s head down to his knees and hold it there. The reason is that it is demeaning to the dignity of the horse or man. It is an ethical, philosophical problem, as well as a scientific one. Even in the handling of prisoners of war there are conventions of dignity. When you act this way toward a horse with this unprovoked, irrational and unrelenting constant aggression, you demean everything: the horse, nature, yourself, the art and the observer.
              I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.


              • #8
                Originally posted by JackSprats Mom View Post
                I ride with Paul and have taken several of his courses. The respect he and his team show for the horses is remarkable. I have seen him starting youngsters and working the piaffe amd levade. All of this is done without force, bullying or humiliation of the spirit. But why is this the exception rather than the rule?
                Oh yes.... I know. Because it takes hard work and a long term commitment to condition and train our horses to work at this level. Why on earth would we take the time when we can just crank the head in??? There's money to be made and ribbons to be won! Chop, chop!!!

                Count me firmly in the anti-rollkur camp.


                • #9
                  I agree with the message, but I wish the article hadn't used such inflammatory, sensationalist language. It takes away from the point of the whole thing, IMO.


                  • #10
                    To me, it read like someone who'd just had enough.

                    They'd had enough of being politically correct, were exhausted by trying to go through all the correct avenues, and were just tired of trying to play the game.

                    Someone who was just going to lay it out there and let the chips fall where they may.

                    Defintely something this sport needs more of, with all of our very "particular" language which seems to be couched in terms so that it can never come back to bite the speaker in the butt, should popular opinion, popular (read: money making) riders, or sponsor's opinions, change.

                    I thougt it was refreshing.

                    Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.


                    • #11
                      I thought it was melodramatic. I understand some thought that the tongue was blue, but slate? Really? Does the writer know what color slate is? Because it's certainly a far cry from what the tongue looked like.

                      I'm just tired of sensationalist back and forth. It would have been a lot more convincing if there had been some scientific evidence to back it up, and read less like when your mother overreacts and gets all wound up trying to scold you for something stupid. You know, like you didn't do the dishes so you're obviously lazy and will never amount to anything. That's the kind of jumping-to-conclusions dramatic attitude the article had.

                      And I'm sorry, I love Paul Belasik, but the "It demeans the horse" is almost embarrassing. That's all the evidence this side of the argument has? "Look" and it hurts Pootsie's feelings? It sounds completely uneducated, and makes it look like the argument lacks base. Each side says "look!" to support their stance, and it's getting kind of silly. Do I agree with this form of riding? No. But do I think that this article was a good representation of why it's so bad? Absolutely not. It was just more propaganda, and read like the anti-smoking rants. Totally illogical, and just full of loaded, biased, disappointing language.


                      • #12
                        Has anyone bothered to read the author's bio.

                        Has anyone ever checked out any of the author's of articles in the Horses for Life mag?

                        Should I assume the owner and staff of Horse for Life approve of all articles they publish? I've seen some real doozies, but only because they were sent to me by a friend. It's not a magazine that would interest most dressage competitors.


                        • #13
                          I have read her bio, available here: http://www.cordequestrian.net/about-us.htm

                          She is a rider and instructor who has been riding and jumping since childhood, came from europe and now lives in TX where she clinics with WAZ and Eddo Hoeskra (spel?). She is interrested in rider and horse alignment - I was interrested in learning her vet invented the FLOW method of osteopathy - it is a great technique. She has shown to 4th level, is also interrested in NH and her horses appear decontracted and content.

                          I think she is a well rounded horsewoman and I am interrested in her pov. As to Horses for Life not being for most dressage competitors, that is truly a pity. HFL has many, many informative articles about dressage theory, biomechanics, horse health from people who are well respected for having trained horses to GP and beyond. You dont have to appreciate every contributor but you should recognize that there are some real experts sharing their knowledge.

                          As a horse lover, I enjoy reading everything about horses, I even read books by trainers whose philosophy I disagree with because I want to educate myself. In America, outside of HFL, there are very few resources that provide such diversity and wealth of article. Certainly Dressage Today and COTH pale in comparison. What does that leave? USDF magazine? We are not getting even 1/4 of the quality and range of content available in Europe. At least HFL is trying to remedy that.


                          • #14
                            When I want to read poorly organized opinion pieces that only vaguely mention facts, tell only part of the story (and only that part that supports their own side), and are based entirely on emotional appeal, I'll read a blog.

                            That is not an article.

                            I'm not a rollkur fan, but seriously -- an approach like that is not going to appeal to anyone but the already converted who want to hear what they are already saying, only louder.


                            • #15

                              Check out TOPLINE INK. Great magazine and more geared to classical rather than competitive...... well worth the price and a real keeper!!!

                              I do enjoy HFL as there are some very good contributors and worth while articles!!

                              As far as RK, one does not need to be a scientist to see the agony in the horse's eyes..... Not to mention the sheer cruelty and in humane treatment of the horse. If we do not clean up our own backyard, the HSUS and PETA will! But of course, it is all about the win... fast results and the heck with anything else. Sick, IMO. Look at what is winning in the top levels and then go back and read what was considered "correct"... leg movers and flashy gaits, wrong, wrong, wrong!!!
                              We do not have an overpopulation of dogs, we have an under population of responsible dog owners!!!


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Arizona DQ View Post

                                Check out TOPLINE INK. Great magazine and more geared to classical rather than competitive...... well worth the price and a real keeper!!!

                                I do enjoy HFL as there are some very good contributors and worth while articles!!

                                As far as RK, one does not need to be a scientist to see the agony in the horse's eyes..... Not to mention the sheer cruelty and in humane treatment of the horse. If we do not clean up our own backyard, the HSUS and PETA will! But of course, it is all about the win... fast results and the heck with anything else. Sick, IMO. Look at what is winning in the top levels and then go back and read what was considered "correct"... leg movers and flashy gaits, wrong, wrong, wrong!!!
                                Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive. Dalai Lama


                                • #17
                                  Thank you Arizona, I susbcribe to ToplineInk and I think the publisher does a very good job with it.

                                  Most magazines have editorial column, why not HFL. As to the writing, I can appreciate the passion expressed.


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Coppers mom View Post
                                    It would have been a lot more convincing if there had been some scientific evidence to back it up, .
                                    what is with this "science backing it up" stuff lately?

                                    have we *ever* needed science before? did they need science to ban abusive whipping? or soring? of caning? or the myriad of other nasty/stupid things people do to horses?

                                    and how exactly do you want science to prove one way or another about rollkur?

                                    sometimes all you need are eyes..... and a heart.


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                      what is with this "science backing it up" stuff lately?

                                      sometimes all you need are eyes..... and a heart.
                                      See, this is exactly the emotional response that makes most that are fine with Rollkur roll their eyes and call BS. It really takes away from the message. I feel that every time someone has this sort of overly melodramatic response, it takes away from the credibility of the message.

                                      The problem is that some are more of the bleeding heart types than others, and everyone reacts differently to things. Science provides a clear, level baseline for which to judge things by. Which, IMO, is a much better than saying "just listen to your heart and look deep into his eyes" or something equally cheesy.


                                      • #20
                                        i am not anti science- far from it..... but i am not sure how, given how difficult it is even for science to agree on how horses collect (topline or bottom line) or how they see or any other myriads of things that science cant prove at this point in time... how exactly is science going to prove one way or another about rollkur?

                                        plus, there is a lot of info out there already that over bending the neck is not good for the horse, that rushing training is not good, etc etc. but it gets poopoo'd....

                                        there are many many educated and well respected people that speak out but are poo poo'd... so i am not sure what would be good enough evidence?

                                        btw: it seems that any argument from the anti's gets the pro rolling their eyes...

                                        i will agree tho that over the top emotional diatribes dont help - i just dont think science is going to be very helpful. and i am not sure what it is people want from science.... do you?