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Cloning- how long until the dressage world starts this?

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  • Cloning- how long until the dressage world starts this?

    Gem Twist the famous jumper has been cloned and the colt is 8 months old I think. So how soon before they decide to clone Totilas?


    http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2008/09/105.shtml
    “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”

  • #2
    haven't they cloned Poetin already?

    Personally, I'm more interested in when they'll start cloning the riders.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/28227.php
      your horse will cost you $367,350 plus a patent royalty fee of 15% based on the number of clones produced and their estimated value, according to Peter Kagel, founder and president of http://www.horsecloning.com. Kagel estimates that for your money you could end up with 0 to 16 clones.

      The same University of Idaho team, headed by the renowned Gordon Woods, PhD, which successfully cloned 3 mules in 2003, will perform the cloning. (Please see chennaionline.com/science/mule.asp; also please see uidaho.edu/cloning.)

      "It's a bit of a gamble with a huge potential payoff," stated Kagel. "Because while there are no guarantees, and on the bottom end you could end up with no clones, on the top end it is estimated, due to advances in science and cloning protocols since 2003, that you could end up with 16 clones from the 100 mares that will be impregnated with your horse's DNA. So if the horse you are cloning is worth $100,000 you could end up with a tidy profit of over $1,000,000 or thereabouts. That's a lot more money than your stallion or mare is likely to produce over several breeding seasons, plus you don't know the quality of horse you will get from breeding."

      "Horse cloning is the wave of the future," Kagel went on. "People are only going to clone quality horses, the top-of-the-bloodline champions. Eventually cloning will allow today's economically unattainable horse to be purchased by the middle-class horse aficionado.

      ...
      "The evidence is solid that clones appear to be normal, have the ability to bear offspring and live just as long if not longer than regularly bred animals." (Human Cloning Report and BBC Report)
      oh yeah, the average middle class horse owner will fork out nearly $400K for a horse. Uh-huh!?!
      "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, the William Gibson future is finally upon us

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't think it really is. Cloning is going to be very expensive for quite a while. I'm not really sure cloning really is what people think it is. It's not like cloning the president in the woody allen movie.

          Comment


          • #6
            Rusty was cloned a few years ago.

            What has red hair and lives in a test tube?

            Comment


            • #7
              Cloning is alive and well in the QH breeding world. I met a handful of versions of one successful stallion just yesterday... It will catch on in Sport Horses eventually.

              Comment


              • #8
                I thought there were actual "problems" with clones that has to do with the age of the cell used and aging of the cells that develop. They don't "age" normally. Any experts here?

                Comment


                • #9
                  some kind of telomere problem early on. don't know if it's necessarily a problem now.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What is telomere?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How is this going to help the middle class afford good horses?

                      In the short term, of course, only the ueber wealthy will buy the clones.

                      Should cloning become the way of the future, I suppose that clones will be the higher priced animals and few will want to take the comparative risk of breeding the old fashioned way. So traditionally bred, very young horses may become the new, cheaper horse.

                      But in the long term, doesn't it stand to reason that cloning will really screw things up by creating a genetically homogeneous population? Then no one-- rich or poor-- will be able to buy their way out of the effects of inbreeding.

                      If you know enough physiological genetics to think about cloning, it seems to me that you ought to read up on some population genetics, too.
                      The armchair saddler
                      Politically Pro-Cat

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Putting on highly-decorated swami turban ...

                        They will overcome the technical issues with cloning. In a very, very few years clones will be indistinguishable from any other horse (if not already.)

                        Cloning will someday be an important source of horses for adult amateur and junior riders and owners who want a known quantity. "Expensive" will be comparable to the cost of obtaining a good quality horse anyway. The big market for cloning isn't just the re-creation of outstanding professional equine performers, it's also the horse-loving amateurs and juniors (and parents,) who want predictability. And in some cases, a newer younger version of a current favorite will be more desirable for some amateurs/juniors than taking on a less-known new personality. There's a demographic element, I predict this will be ever more true as the majority of riders are aging.

                        And once the clone is mature, a trained clone horse is just another horse to consider when horse-shopping, it won't matter how he was conceived. The day will come when buyers won't always know that an undocumented mature horse for sale is a clone - nor will it really matter. When horse-shopping do you ask if a horse was conceived through AI?

                        And I do believe that in the future the cost of creating a clone will be comparable to buying or breeding naturally. Someday it could even be less expensive.

                        So I believe the answer to the op is that within 10 years it will be common for horse owners will be considering clones along with naturally-conceived horses as their next horse. (But probably not universal, it will take more time to develop a clone population.)

                        I also believe that in the future when the ultimate moment of passing over arrives for any horse of any age, a standard vet question will be "do you want to preserve DNA for a clone?" Even if Dear Sweetie isn't a perfect horse, he's your loved treasure, and you might like to continue the journey with a younger version. And this time around you'll fix all the mistakes that were made with version #1.

                        Once people asked the same questions about AI and surrogate mare moms carrying the offspring of actively performing mares. There was even once a question if AI would ever be accepted by the general horse-owning population. Now we take those technologies for granted. I predict the same destiny for cloning.

                        The QH people seem to be trail-breaking once again in reproductive technology with their work on clones. I have no doubt the rest of the horse world will follow, once again. The QH registry is already figuring out what to do about several clone foals.

                        IMO the real issue with cloning is the shrinking gene pool. But that's already with us through the other breeding technologies. And who knows, perhaps at this moment in history it's more good than bad, with shrinking space for horses and less interest in lower-quality horses.

                        Sorry to go on ... taking off swami-turban.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mvp View Post
                          How is this going to help the middle class afford good horses?
                          ...
                          I think creative, entrepreneurial breeders will make it cost-effective to duplicate the horse adult amateurs already have. I think some number of amateurs will like the idea of starting over with a new version their current favorite. They will feel more comfortable they know what training directions to take. And they will like the idea of avoiding the inevitable training mistakes made on their current horse.

                          I think in time the middle class will like the greater predictability of a clone - both internal and behavioral. I think some will take on raising a horse from baby-hood that might not have done so otherwise.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            More technical crap to consider

                            And I to think the technical crap is important here.

                            First, contrary to what OverandOnward's post implied, the ability to clone does not easily lead to the ability to design phenotype for the next generation. That's because we know far too little about genetic interaction, regulation and expression during ontogenetic development. In short, if you can't tell a story that goes from genes all the way to, say, fugly crooked legs, you can't design a better genetic blue print for straighter legs. In addition, most of the phenotypic characters we care about-- often proportions of bones, but also complicated structures like necks, have very complicated genetic causes.

                            Second, cloning does not cause the gene pool of an interbreeding population to contract in a way that's different from AI, or the use of frozen semen. On the contrary, I think it threaten to homogenize that group in exactly the same way: It advertises the possibility of getting in on a very hot genetic combination.... over and over... until there are comparatively few genetic alternatives. Cloning just gets the job done faster than do our current repro techniques that allow people to create breeding stock that are unnaturally fecund.

                            It might encourage people to see breeding stock as a good investment because the eggs and semen their animals have can be harvested, preserved and used to produce many more foals than would be possible otherwise. Those same breeders would, understandably, try to promote their animals as *the one* to breed to. That will work for awhile, but if it works too well, we will be screwed. Mutation rates-- the source of new genetic variations-- are quite low, and the chance production of a genetic variation that we consider advantageous is even smaller. It seems to me that the problems associated with a homogeneous populations are large and tough to undo.
                            The armchair saddler
                            Politically Pro-Cat

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              I personally think it is creepy and immoral. JMO
                              “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Even more technical crap

                                IIRC, a telomere is a thread in the cytoplasm of a cell that pulls dividing chromosomes toward their respective poles during meiosis.

                                And as far cloning being creepy and immoral... if it is, then it is in all the same ways that all the manipulative stuff back to artificial selection are. JMO, but ethics are a point worth considering as it becomes technologically possible to bigger, better, faster. The quality of life for animals with genetic diseases are my gold standard for moral questions.
                                The armchair saddler
                                Politically Pro-Cat

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Well, AI has been responsible for the rapid spread of some very poor traits in a nice looking outside package. AI is nice in some ways ... ie convenient for certain situations, but problematic in many.

                                  Doesn't the throughbred racing community still demand live breeding? Most of the high quality dog breeders I know do not favor AI for very specific reasons. Live breed only. Dogs are easier to see long term genetic problems in because they breed more often, grow up much faster and have more progeny to base studies on.

                                  Personally, I am not in favor of cloning.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    The quality of life for animals with genetic diseases are my gold standard for moral questions.
                                    Culling via slaughterhouse was a viable solution if the humans had been able to figure out a more humane way of transportation, handling and killing.

                                    Death is a part of life, whether people want to except that or not.

                                    Ethics and enabling ethical treatment of animals, including humane slaughter, would be a better soltuion in my opinion.

                                    Cloning is going to reduce genetic diversity and I really don't think cloning for amateaur dressage riders is ethical at all. Half of them don't ride very well and many are too ignorant to take good care of the horse/s they already have.

                                    How about better education?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
                                      Well, AI has been responsible for the rapid spread of some very poor traits in a nice looking outside package. AI is nice in some ways ... ie convenient for certain situations, but problematic in many.

                                      Doesn't the throughbred racing community still demand live breeding? Most of the high quality dog breeders I know do not favor AI for very specific reasons. Live breed only. Dogs are easier to see long term genetic problems in because they breed more often, grow up much faster and have more progeny to base studies on.

                                      Personally, I am not in favor of cloning.
                                      Yes to be registered as a TB it must be live cover and the dog breeding thing isn't true. Most do AI but they also do live cover.
                                      Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive. Dalai Lama

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                        First, contrary to what OverandOnward's post implied, the ability to clone does not easily lead to the ability to design phenotype for the next generation. That's because we know far too little about genetic interaction, regulation and expression during ontogenetic development. In short, if you can't tell a story that goes from genes all the way to, say, fugly crooked legs, you can't design a better genetic blue print for straighter legs. In addition, most of the phenotypic characters we care about-- often proportions of bones, but also complicated structures like necks, have very complicated genetic causes.
                                        Sorry but I think you entirely missed my point. Wasn't contemplating any changes to or redesign of the original animal. I think this is what people are not contemplating but there is in fact a market segment for ... duplicates of the original pet, flaws and all. Because of the emotional pet aspect over and above the performance aspect. There is a huge market of people who want predictability and perceived emotional continuance over perfection. (Those people might not be posting here.)

                                        It is the training and life experience they get to improve upon. The 2nd time around I raise my horse from a baby, rather than getting him when he was 8 yo as I did the 1st time around.

                                        Comment

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