• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Upper level training seemed really harsh?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Upper level training seemed really harsh?

    I recently took a lesson from a pretty BNT. They train to/at GP and have won countless awards in the ring, they are very competitive nationally. I was really excited to ride with them, I had heard great things -- and to their credit they were very friendly and acted professionally to me. But I went early to watch, and I was really disappointed... the head trainer was on a student's horse and was YANKING on the reins. Not little subtle corrections, stuff, quick, hard jerks to the reins if the horse didn't respond in the way the trainer wanted him to.

    I could not see a reason for doing this. I can understand if a horse is bolting or bucking, then it's self-preservation! I saw this type of riding going on with everyone in the ring, including the other trainer and 4 students/boarders. I know at least one of them was at the PSG level because they were practicing their test. The riding I saw was the definition of crank and spank -- swat w/the whip, grab the mouth. Over and over.

    The thing is, the horses were very much on their hind end. They didn't seem particularly relaxed and were BTV about 50% of the time, but they were definitely balanced and on their butts.

    Personally what I saw made me really upset, and I'm not going back. However, I've never been at/around a facility that trained to that level. Does the training get... harsher and more demanding? Like, if the horse doesn't respond quickly to a rein aid you give a harsher aid? This does not seem like the correct way to train, but I'm a first level rider on a good day, so what do I know?

    I remember someone saying that if you're not used to a very high level of training, it can look almost abusive (long time cantering was the example). What I saw seemed to cross the line though.

    I'm never going back to that facility, I just cannot in good conscience ride there. However, I'd like to know what methods are accepted, and if I'm being too sensitive?

  • #2
    Sounds like a horrible trainer

    That sounds sickening! You are not being too sensitive at all. This is wrong, wrong, wrong! It does not take yanking the reins to move up the levels. You teach horses to use their hind ends by half halting (which is not yanking), using your core, strengthening the gaits, teaching the horse to be elastic (forward and back) within gaits, and having great timing as a rider. I feel very bad for those horses - they do not sound like happy campers!

    Those people are missing the point of dressage. Where is the finesse, beauty, and unity with the horse? Where is the tact? The higher level the horse is trained, the more subtle the aids are supposed to be. Additionally, if you start out teaching and riding the young horse with the same subtle aids when he is a baby horse, he only gets more and more fine tuned.

    No, training does not get more harsh as you move up the levels. It does in a sense get more demanding physically and mentally, but that is something that the horse and rider build up to through conditioning and strengthening.

    I remember someone saying that if you're not used to a very high level of training, it can look almost abusive (long time cantering was the example).
    Whoever told you that is a moron! They have got it completely backwards. Any good rider does not canter (drill) their horse incessantly. Conditioning is something completely different and not abusive.

    You say that you went there for a lesson. Did you actually ride in the lesson, or did you back out?

    Comment


    • #3
      I did ride there. I learned a couple valuable things about my riding that will help me with my horse, but I can't justify going back. Plus, my biceps hurt after riding! My barely training level horse has a much lighter connection. It's my goal to refine and lighten that connection even further, which is what I thought I would be getting with a higher trained horse.

      In regards to the cantering comment, from what I remember the poster meant if you are used to cantering for 4 or 5 minutes on an older school horse, cantering for 10 minutes to seriously school a well-trained, fit horse might appear to be abuse. Not endlessly drilling or anything, just working harder and asking a bit more!

      Comment


      • #4
        By chance was this in So Cal?

        Comment


        • #5
          From what I have seen in dressage riding today, I would say that the one biggest element missing in most rider's training is the correct balance AND use of that balance to lift the horse UP into contact. At the beginning of the training...yes, more hand work needs to be used than is ideal. However, this rein work needs to be accompanied by the rider's correct use of the weight aids. Over time, as the horse more understands and can be influenced by the weight aids, there should be much less of this hand stuff. (or all this riding the horse on the curb bit either.) But, I think you will be very hard-pressed to find an instructor to teach you this.

          Comment


          • #6
            "By chance was this in so cal?"

            LOL.

            It could be anywhere.

            Without seeing it, I am not going to jump to conclusions. It might be that the trainer was overly harsh. But it may also be that the horse was running through the aids and refusing to carry himself in a way you can't really see. If you are used to seeing lower level horses noodle along, shuffle along with their nose in the dirt, you may not be able to see yet what's going on at a higher level, and how a horse can push through the aids and need to be corrected.

            I really hate discussions like this, because the assumption is ALWAYS that the trainer is wrong if someone doesn't like what they saw and the trainer is NEVER there to defend him or herself, there is never any video so the other posters can judge for themselves, and the emotional words ('jerking', 'crank and spank', 'cruel', 'won't go back') mean EVERYONE is going to play 'pile on the trainer'. In other words, it is a totally one sided discussion and anyone who doesn't agree the trainer is a brute is 'inhumane' and 'ignorant'.

            It's quite true - the trainer may be dead wrong and really a brute; I've seen enough of that, and the inability to do anything about it except leave is indeed frustrating. There is a very well established group of trainers out there who teach and ride what looks like dressage, but is just jerking the reins til the horse stays behind the bit and does sort of a parody of dressage movements, without the basics in place.

            However...it's also quite possible that you aren't really picking up on everything that's going on. First of all, the trainer usually gets the ride on the big, spoiled, badly behaved horses and watching them get the bad habits out of these horses is not always pretty.

            Your arms are sore? Perhaps your horse has spent years on the forehand and is now stiff and resistant when he's asked to be more supple and carry himself. Maybe getting him to be correct is a huge laborious task now. Maybe after a long time in a lower level posture your horse is in the habit of going on the forehand.

            Many horses fight back when asked to carry themselves, and often riders can create impulsion, but can't channel it or supple it (the so-called 'First to Second Level Dilemma').

            Many people go away from a dressage lesson with a good trainer with every bone, tendon and muscle in their body sore. Maybe you're out of shape.

            Maybe the dressage trainer wasn't really telling you - 'come on, brace your arms harder! harder! that's good!' Maybe he was trying to get you to do something else. Maybe you weren't able to do what the trainer was saying. Maybe his version of what happened in the lesson is very different from yours.

            Maybe you can be 'soft' with the reins when they're on the buckle, but have a much harder time staying loose when you shorten your reins and ask your horse to work. Maybe a stiff closed hip makes it very hard for you to ride with your reins a little shorter and ask your horse to carry himself.

            Maybe not every uncomfortable lesson we have in our riding lives is because the trainer is a louse....

            A rider needs to be able to supple his horse, bend him this way, bend him that way...Otherwise he has a horse that has his head up and is doing upper level work, but is stiff as a board or a horse that is trucking along on the forehand leaning on the bit when he tries to ride with a shorter rein.

            A rider needs to learn to be just as loose and soft and supple with a shorter rein and the horse carrying himself...and if he can't do that right now, maybe he will be able to later by opening his hip and deepening his seat.

            When this 'crosses a line' from 'necessary corrections in training' to 'just being a brute' is often a matter of opinion. Without the other party getting a chance to defend themselves....
            Last edited by slc2; Sep. 2, 2009, 07:08 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Was it by chance, Cathy Morelli or someone using her "method"?
              "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
              ---
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

              Comment


              • #8
                After I purchased my schoolmaster I worked with his long time trainer for a while. She rode like that. Then I worked with another very BNT, who also worked like that. The rides would begin violently; if the horse did not listen to the small aid, the aid got big (read jerk, pull, kick). I thought that was how it was done, because both were FEI, and they both rode similarly. Then I had the opportunity to work with another, who taught completely differently.... She was able to show me how one could get the movements, with much more beauty and suppleness, without ever being rude or violent. I almost didn't ride with the last one, because having ridden with the first two, I thought she would be the same.

                The last trainer changed everything for me. There are good ones out there for you too. Keep looking.

                slc2, this is a discussion forum. The OP is discussing things she saw that made her uncomfortable. It is okay to discuss these things.
                Last edited by Carol O; Sep. 2, 2009, 08:44 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  But I think slc makes a very good point. I read the OPs post and I had two thoughts:

                  a) yup, I've seen that too

                  and

                  b) how can I know for sure that the OP wasn't misunderstanding something she saw?

                  I'm not convinced that training of any animal or human goes in a lovely smooth line where each new thing is introduced with subtlety so small no one sees, and the horse says "oh, yes, I can do that" and voila we have a half pass or whatever.

                  Often people bring horses to clinics because the horse has loads of bad habits and issues they can't fix, and they want the trainer to work through it in two days and show them how to correct the issue. I've even seen clinics where the clinician didn't jerk or smack but the horse was so pissed off being asked to simply go forward that it looked like a rodeo. With the clinician sitting quietly, giving the subtlest aids. I've seen the same guy give a horse a huge crack on the a$$ when it ignored the leg.

                  So yes, I've seen some clinicians I think go too far with spur, whip or sharp hands. I've seen some use the spur or rein sharply when I thought it was absolutely appropriate. And I've seen clinicians not do anything with spur or whip, and still have a horse making just terrible protestations at having to work.

                  But OP - there are lots of styles of training and teaching, and I'd follow your gut as to whether this trainer was good, or right for you and your horse. We weren't there, and can't really make an informed opinion, you know?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    even in natural horsemanship, eventually you have to go to "level 4" if the horse ignored level 1 - 3 cues.

                    that said, I don't believe punishing the mouth / face is ever appropriate.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by YepItsAnAlter View Post
                      the head trainer was on a student's horse and was YANKING on the reins. Not little subtle corrections, stuff, quick, hard jerks to the reins if the horse didn't respond in the way the trainer wanted him to.

                      ITS REALLY HARD TO TELL WITHOUT HAVING BEEN THERE - OBVIOUSLY.

                      I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE MOMENTS IN THE TRAINING OF EVERY HORSE THAT THINGS WILL GET A BIT UGLY.

                      WE'VE ALL SEEN THE PHOTOS OF ANKY AND NICHOLE UPHOFF ON REMBRANDT WHEN THE HORSE IS IN EXTREME ROLLKUR AND WE CAN BE SANCTIMONIOUSLY HORRIFIED. YET THERE IS A TON OF BRILLIANT FOOTAGE OF THESE HORSES LOOKING BEUTIFUL. I HAVE AN AQUANTANCE WHO WAS WATCHING SP WARM UP RAVEL AT ACHEN AND COMMENTED IN A SNITTY VOICE THAT HE HAD HIM IN ROLLKUR - CLEARLY RAVEL WENT BRILLIANTLY IN THE RING AT ACHEN.

                      I'VE RIDEN WITH A LOT OF BNT. IF WHAT YOU SAW IS AS DESCRIBED - QUICK HARD JERKS ON THE REINS - I WOULDN'T PRESCRIBE TO THAT METHOD EITHER

                      However, I've never been at/around a facility that trained to that level.

                      I WOULD MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO CHECK OUT TRAINING AT THIS LEVEL AT ANY FACILITY OR SHOW RING THAT YOU CAN GET TO

                      Does the training get... harsher and more demanding? Like, if the horse doesn't respond quickly to a rein aid you give a harsher aid? This does not seem like the correct way to train,

                      YES AND NO. I LIKE TO THINK OF THIS AS LEG AIDS. IF THE HORSE DOES NOT RESPONG TO SOFT POLITE PRESSURE WITH THE CALF THAN YES A QUICK HARSHER AID THEN BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SOFT ONE (REPEAT AS NECESSARY) THE IDEA IS TO GET THE HORSE TUNED IN TO RESPONDING TO THE LIGHTEST AIDS.

                      I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK ABOUT HARSH REIN AIDS THOUGH. I DON'T THINK OF REIN AIDS AS HARSH (SO MAYBE I WOULD DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAW - AGAIN CHECK OUT AS MANY UPPER LEVEL RIDERS AS YOU CAN).

                      I KNOW THERE ARE TIMES, FOR EXAMPLE IN THE SHOULDER-IN, WHERE I WILL EXAGERATE THE INSIDE BENDING - BUT THE REIN AIDS TO DO THIS ARE NOT JERKY AND MY MUSCLES ARE NOT STRESSED.

                      THERE ARE TIMES WHEN MY MARE GETS POLL LOW IN THE CANTER THAT I MIGHT GIVE A QUICK UPWARD HALF-HALT . THIS WOULD BE VISABLE TO THE SKILLED EYE

                      I remember someone saying that if you're not used to a very high level of training, it can look almost abusive (long time cantering was the example). What I saw seemed to cross the line though.

                      MAYBE, IN THE SAME WAY THAT THOSE PHOTO MOMENTS OF ANKY SEEM ABUSIVE - BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE HER TRAINING RIDE WOULD APPEAR AT ALL ABUSIVE.

                      PERSONALLY, I DON'T LIKE REALLY LONG STRETCHES OF WORK - AS A GENERAL RULE. I DON'T WANT TO FATIGUE THE MUSCLES TO THE POINT THAT THEY GET ANAEROBIC. WHEN I'M DOING REALLY STRENUOUS STUFF (SAY CANTER PIROUETTE) I MIGHT TAKE REALLY QUICK WALK BREAK (LIKE JUST ONE QUICK CIRCLE) THEN RIGHT BACK TO WORK WHEN I GET A LITTLE IMPROVEMENT REALLY QUICK WALK BREAK THEN RIGHT BACK TO WORK

                      I'm never going back to that facility, I just cannot in good conscience ride there. However, I'd like to know what methods are accepted, and if I'm being too sensitive?
                      YOU MIGHT WANT TO GO BACK AND OBSERVE
                      Last edited by caddym; Sep. 2, 2009, 10:54 AM. Reason: TYPOS

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OP, unfortunately, there are many riders/trainers who do think that's this is how it's done and it's justified when dealing with an animal 10 times heavier than you are. They do not know how to get results otherwise, but do get results with harsh riding and even win. The only thing is that their horses are not willing participants in that journey. Every ride starts with a fight and demands that their animal must submit to their will. There are many of them even on COTH who will tell you that it's OK and if you don't do it, you are a wimp and not an Alpha to your spoiled heard horse.

                        However, there are riders/trainers who can train UP with gentle methods. In my riding with Arthur Kottas, I already found out that it's possible to teach flying tempi changes to my horse with out any resistance and horse thinks that it's fun and tries her heart out. But you have to be able to prep that horse for about 30 minutes with the smart exercisers (this is where most lack the knowledge of how to prep them) and only when the horse is ready and can do the little patricians of that new exercise, you ask for the new exercise as a whole and do it only for 5 minutes and then put your horse away as a reward. Compare to harsh riding trainers, that method of teaching looked just like magic and auditors were not even able to recognize that my mare never did tempis before: we just turned down to the diagonal and off we went skipping along with Arthur yelling at me to sit deeper I can tell you that Arthur gets very mad when he sees any rein yanks, as mad as he doesn’t want to continue to teach that rider. After this kind of lessons, I watch on yank and spank and wonder why do they do that, if there is an easier and less combative ways to train?

                        It doesn’t mean that they are not knowledgeable and can’t teach you anything. It just means that this is the only way how they can teach. (and I'm not sure that you can change them) Harsh, crank and spank trainers who get blue ribbons can be found in any state. As an AA you have a choice how you want to spend your riding time: everyday fighting with your horse or taking a journey together.

                        And most of crank and spank trainers will tell you the seamless theory about the "response for lighter aids and stern correction if horse doesn’t respond" That general thinking is correct, but they tend to forget that their "stern corrections" turned in to painful nagging already, since they "correct" their horses so often. If you see a trainer correcting with stern whip once/twice per lesson - that's OK, but if it's continues "correction" every other minute until the horse will give in- that is already the way of their riding, not the way of correcting their horse.
                        Last edited by Dressage Art; Sep. 2, 2009, 12:08 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thank you for all the discussion. I wanted to start this thread because I don't have experience at that level and wanted to know (ideally I suppose) how the training is accomplished.

                          Dressage Art, you hit the nail on the head. "And most of crank and spank trainers will tell you the seamless theory about the 'response for lighter aids and stern correction if horse doesn’t respond' That general thinking is correct, but they tend to forget that their 'stern corrections' turned in to painful nagging already, since they 'correct' their horses so often. If you see a trainer correcting with stern whip once/twice per lesson - that's OK, but if it's continues 'correction' every other minute until the horse will give in- that is already the way of their riding, not the way of correcting their horse."

                          That is *exactly* the feeling I got when I had my lesson. I was riding a somewhat lazy horse, so I had to squeeze hard and actually kick once to get forward movement. Using the legs this way once in a while as a correction doesn't bother me, but the constant yanking on the reins does (I wasn't yanking, and they didn't tell me to thank goodness). I can understand correction and the need for it, and to be fair, maybe the horses were being really disobedient? But all 5 horses for their entire ride? It just didn't add up for me.

                          Slc, I think it was your comment that I read about training looking abusive if you're not used to it, which sparked me to start this thread. I don't have the knowledge, so I'm asking those who do.

                          Btw, my arms were sore after riding their horse, not mine. She was up off her forehand, but I had sooo much head in my hands! How much weight (ideally) are you supposed to carry when your horse is traveling correctly? I assumed it was a super light connection, maybe not with all well-trained horses?

                          I do realize that in everyday training, eq can't be perfect and there may be quite a few corrections going on... I was just concerned that every rider seemed to be doing the same thing the whole time they rode -- not just correct and move on, it was very frequent and seemed overly-harsh.

                          Ok so the feeling I'm getting is that a horse without any rank behaviors should be able to be trained with minimal harsh rein corrections.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hope this is not just a trainwreck, I forgot the popcorn today.

                            I would say it is hard to know from your description of the clinic and your description of your experience which end of the spectrum "awful trainer"-----------"newbie lightness is everything, riding with no contact"

                            Contact is absolutely necessary to recycle forward aids. The amount you had in your hands when you rode their horse may very well be absolutely correct. The contact "weight" varies during the ride on an advanced horse. Some moments if the horse struggles a bit with the collection, you might have #### in your hands, and need to use quick, sometimes sharp little half halts to restor self carriage. It should never feel like "nothingness" as one of my instructors calls it. You strive for a supple, elastic contact that you can push the hind legs into.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've worked with very, very polar opposite styles of trainers. The type you are describing, and then I met and rode with Walter Zettl and realized it didn't have to be that way just to get to GP.

                              While I couldn't ride with Walter regularly, I did ride with him a couple times a year for three or four years and it was a paradigm shift in my riding and my quest for dressage.

                              I now ride in the French/Portuguese school. I had the privelege of a mere ONE clinic with Jean-Claude Racinet, but was an avid devotee of his articles in D&CT and then his books... I now ride at a Portuguese school.

                              You can still get there without excessive weight in the reins. Will there be corrections at times? Of course. But I knew it was worth travelling 5 hrs one way to ride with my teacher the first time I watched him working an upper level schoolmaster. The stallion was not being entirely obedient, (exhuberance) and was rather stiff to one side, so I wasn't just watching exhibition riding. What I still saw was dancing and playing. I then saw a young horse just learning movements, and again, it was in a spirit of *playing*... and felt much more like art than anything else. As a musician, I am well aware art does not come without *discipline*, correct technique, and hours and hours of building muscle memory and refining the quickest of responses... but, we PLAY an instrument, we do not WORK it.
                              InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                              Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Btw, my arms were sore after riding their horse, not mine. She was up off her forehand, but I had sooo much head in my hands! How much weight (ideally) are you supposed to carry when your horse is traveling correctly? I assumed it was a super light connection, maybe not with all well-trained horses?
                                the more trained a horse, the harder they are to ride if YOU have not ridden up the levels. I know from experience. They will often get heavy before they get light. My Schoolmaster is a good example...one I learned how to engage him better, he became "light". I have tried to explain this to people but they don't get it until they actually ride it...and I mean from the start, not after a trainer warmed it up for half an hour.
                                Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  In order for a horse to be disobedient, he first has to understand what it is that you are asking of him. It is your OBLIGATION to make sure that you have taught him well in the first place.
                                  ... _. ._ .._. .._

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Art ends where violence begins.
                                    Laurie Higgins
                                    www.coreconnexxions.com
                                    ________________
                                    "Expectation is premeditated disappointment."

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      i can understand the original poster, i'm an amateur by all means. highest i've showed is first and schooled some 2nd, very casually.

                                      I like light contact - i like to think that is what the high level horses are on. I'm sure i'm sadly and ignorantly mistaken. maybe one lb IF that much is what i want when i ride. When i had a few lessons schooling 2nd, i had alot of contact... more than i liked.

                                      I prefer first level.

                                      i think this is turning into a discussion on how much weight to have in ur hands.
                                      Carol and Princess Dewi

                                      **~Doccer'sDressage~**

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by pintopiaffe View Post

                                        As a musician, I am well aware art does not come without *discipline*, correct technique, and hours and hours of building muscle memory and refining the quickest of responses... but, we PLAY an instrument, we do not WORK it.
                                        Very well said!

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X