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Classical vs... the rest of us

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  • Classical vs... the rest of us

    So you have the "classical" people, and the rest of us. There have been many threads about this; how one is better than the other, etc.

    What I am wondering is.... What common ground do we share? We all love horses, of course, but what other common thread exist?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Carol O View Post
    So you have the "classical" people, and the rest of us. There have been many threads about this; how one is better than the other, etc.

    What I am wondering is.... What common ground do we share? We all love horses, of course, but what other common thread exist?
    You love the sport of dressage.
    “Maybe some women aren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they just need to run free til they find someone just as wild to run with them.”

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      And we all eat, breath air, and sleep....

      Worse than I expected. No common ground.
      Last edited by Carol O; Aug. 21, 2009, 11:01 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Carol O wrote:
        What I am wondering is.... What common ground do we share? We all love horses, of course, but what other common thread exist?
        We ride in dressage saddles. We use leather reins. We wear tall boots. We wear gloves. We carry a whip and wear spurs. That’s about all I can think of at this point.

        Comment


        • #5
          So you have the "classical" people, and the rest of us
          Assuming this is not a troll looking for another trainwreck on a very tired subject, that's a faulty premise based on the often misused label 'classical' which appears to have vague, widely varied and subjective meanings.

          As is often said, there's only good training and bad training, whatever the label attached.

          Forget the label and watch the riding, watch the training, watch how the horses and students progress in training.

          I remember that was a big time 'classical' expert from another dressage board who came here trolling under an alter in bizarre verse to trash another trainer. Troll was outed as someone called Kassette from another board and photos (public domain) emerged of said expert. Labels mean nothing.

          Comment


          • #6
            What do you mean by "classical," and what do you mean by "the rest of us?" I don't wear tall boots generally, as they are blessed hot. Does that mean I do not fall into either group?

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              No troll here. Looking for common ground. I apologise for the title of the thread, as it does not truely represent this idea. How do you change titles?

              Comment


              • #8
                Well I'm one of those "classical" people so if I tell you what I believe that is fundamentally about, then you can decide what you have in common with me

                To me its about striving to achieve a deep understanding about what a horse is and respecting the way it behaves and working with its natural attributes to train it for what you want to do in partnership. Its understanding not just what you do but why and why what you do will illicit certain responses and reactions both in terms of behaviour and dynamic or mechanical action.

                Its not just ground work because that is just the basics.... but extends to correct ridden and driven work and enables the handler/rider/driver to work with empathy and understanding and without force.

                It requires a pragmatic approach and an acknowledgement that horses come in all sorts of types with preferred behaviours and dispositions and they don't have push buttons and haven't read the book about the step by step approach of what always works.

                It also requires an understanding that horses don't have human emotions and behaviours - they're horses: they don't lie, trick, deceive, love, like and dislike

                To me classical training takes a long time to acquire and is a practical skill that must be practiced under good supervision to be acquired well. You can't learn it well or effectively as you go along with a horse making mistakes. And being a practical skill you can't learn it from books and videos though they might give you a theoretical understanding presuming they are extraordinarily well written.

                Classical riding perversely isn't about the rider. It's about showing how fantastically well trained and biddable the horse is and allowing the horse to perform at it's optimum.

                Personally I think that good old fashioned classical equitation ticks all the boxes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oh, grasshopper! Do you have a lot to learn about horses, if you think they have no emotions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yeah, really... the part of the brain that generates emotion is one of the oldest, biologically speaking.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Angel and Grayarabpony: Might be better if you read again for content, context and comprehension.

                      Like I said "Classical" IMO is about striving for a deep understanding about what a horse is and respecting the way it behaves and working with its natural attributes

                      "Classical" is about respecting and appreciating horses for being horses NOT for anthropomorphising.

                      It also requires an understanding that horses don't have human emotions and behaviours - they're horses: they don't lie, trick, deceive, love, like and dislike
                      I'm presuming you two aren't classical and hence nothing in common, or else just got bored and stopped reading!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                        Angel and Grayarabpony: Might be better if you read again for content, context and comprehension.

                        Like I said "Classical" IMO is about striving for a deep understanding about what a horse is and respecting the way it behaves and working with its natural attributes

                        "Classical" is about respecting and appreciating horses for being horses NOT for anthropomorphising.



                        I'm presuming you two aren't classical and hence nothing in common, or else just got bored and stopped reading!
                        Thomas I think they are disagreeing with you about the emotions part. I don't think anyone will argue with you that they don't have human emotions but I believe they do have emotions likes and dislikes etc.
                        Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive. Dalai Lama

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by angel View Post
                          Oh, grasshopper! Do you have a lot to learn about horses, if you think they have no emotions.
                          oh grasshopper as you calll him has had more horses than you 've had hot dinners
                          ooh grasshopper is highly respected to include royalty and not just in driving, will also add hes still one of the top trianing yards in the uk hes a top class very well run examination centre for both riden and driven and old grasshopper also caters for the disabled as much as the abled bodied people

                          a horse will only re-act how you act - its not about likes or dislikes it how you act and interact with a horse

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                            Well I'm one of those "classical" people so if I tell you what I believe that is fundamentally about, then you can decide what you have in common with me

                            To me its about striving to achieve a deep understanding about what a horse is and respecting the way it behaves and working with its natural attributes to train it for what you want to do in partnership. Its understanding not just what you do but why and why what you do will illicit certain responses and reactions both in terms of behaviour and dynamic or mechanical action.

                            Its not just ground work because that is just the basics.... but extends to correct ridden and driven work and enables the handler/rider/driver to work with empathy and understanding and without force.

                            It requires a pragmatic approach and an acknowledgement that horses come in all sorts of types with preferred behaviours and dispositions and they don't have push buttons and haven't read the book about the step by step approach of what always works.

                            It also requires an understanding that horses don't have human emotions and behaviours - they're horses: they don't lie, trick, deceive, love, like and dislike

                            To me classical training takes a long time to acquire and is a practical skill that must be practiced under good supervision to be acquired well. You can't learn it well or effectively as you go along with a horse making mistakes. And being a practical skill you can't learn it from books and videos though they might give you a theoretical understanding presuming they are extraordinarily well written.

                            Classical riding perversely isn't about the rider. It's about showing how fantastically well trained and biddable the horse is and allowing the horse to perform at it's optimum.

                            Personally I think that good old fashioned classical equitation ticks all the boxes.
                            oh well said thomas

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ridgeback View Post
                              Thomas I think they are disagreeing with you about the emotions part. I don't think anyone will argue with you that they don't have human emotions but I believe they do have emotions likes and dislikes etc.
                              But . . . he said not to treat them like they have *human* emotions. There was nothing to indicate that they didn't have emotions at all!

                              I think equine emotions are similar to human emotions, but you have to strip out all the things which require higher cognition, like 'vengeance' and 'self pity'. Clearly they have bonding emotions, fear emotions, boredom, anxiety, jealousy regarding resources, things like that. My guess is that Thomas has his own list of 'horse emotions' that he considers in his training and handling.
                              Eileen
                              http://themaresnest.us

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by goeslikestink View Post
                                oh grasshopper as you calll him has had more horses than you 've had hot dinners
                                ooh grasshopper is highly respected to include royalty and not just in driving, will also add hes still one of the top trianing yards in the uk hes a top class very well run examination centre for both riden and driven and old grasshopper also caters for the disabled as much as the abled bodied people

                                a horse will only re-act how you act - its not about likes or dislikes it how you act and interact with a horse

                                I agree that Thomas is very knowledgeable, and I do agree with his philosophy, but I do disagree with his statement about horses not having likes and dislikes. Like us, their frame of reference comes from previous actions and interactions.

                                Perhaps it is something that he deals with intuitively, not really stopping to consider the horse's mental frame, but dealing with whatever is presented to him. He need not think about it, he just does it.
                                Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by EiRide View Post
                                  But . . . he said not to treat them like they have *human* emotions. There was nothing to indicate that they didn't have emotions at all!

                                  I think equine emotions are similar to human emotions, but you have to strip out all the things which require higher cognition, like 'vengeance' and 'self pity'. Clearly they have bonding emotions, fear emotions, boredom, anxiety, jealousy regarding resources, things like that. My guess is that Thomas has his own list of 'horse emotions' that he considers in his training and handling.
                                  You got it. I'm guessing I've zilch in common with the rest here though.

                                  Heck they don't even seem to speak the same language

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                                    You got it. I'm guessing I've zilch in common with the rest here though.

                                    Heck they don't even seem to speak the same language
                                    thanks a bunch ooh grasshopper lol

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Well, if you sound anything like my brother-in-law, Thomas...you are correct. The English certainly doesn't sound the same!

                                      As far as Thomas having more horses than I have had hot meals...well, I seriously doubt that. But, I will accept that he might have lots more horses than I.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I think more traditional riders do believe and care that horses can feel love, happiness, depression, sadness, fear, stress and even hate. I think more traditional riders do take more care of horse's emotional needs and don't treat them as the disposable equipment with out feelings that some of the more modern riders tend to do. (Buy, testride, sell if it doesn't work out for whatever reason, rinse and repeat = don't have time to waste, got to get that blue ribbon FAST! The only thing that matters is the show results! Doesn’t matter how they’ll get it or what their horses feel)

                                        The similarities can be in many ways: love for horses, love for dressage, spending countless hours in the barn, working hard… describing what we feel and want for our horses in the very similar words, but not what differs is that in the reality “what is considered good for the horse for some riders, is simply not the same for others. There are some very strong divisions, but most people are somewhere in between of those strong divisions. There can be 101 similarities and 101 differences at the same time.
                                        Last edited by Dressage Art; Aug. 23, 2009, 02:15 PM.

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