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  • #81
    As far as hock injections go- they are common in eventing, and the h/j world as well- also there is no scientific or even solid anticdotal evidence that shows that starting a horse w/t/c at 3 causes early deterioration. In fact, it some studies it showed that early work increased bone density in comparative groups of young TBs ages 2-3 yeas old.


    Originally posted by Two Simple
    Repeat after me - HOCK INJECTIONS.

    The horse is bloody 3 years old ferchristsake. THREE. He's doing all this under saddle at 3??? When did they start him? 2? 2 1/2?

    Maybe we should just start breaking weanlings next. Hell, the QH people do it. Why not you too?

    Well heck - just get on 'em at 2 months old. They're tiny and naieve there. Not much chance of getting bucked off ey?
    http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...nibbystrot.jpg
    http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t=IMGP0754.jpg

    Comment


    • #82
      Originally posted by slc2 View Post
      day dream believer, it looks more like yiou are having a hissy fit because someone didn't agree with YOU than the other way around.
      No I'm just tired of being misquoted by elistist DQ's like you who are appalled that anyone might criticize on hair on that horse's body.

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by Two Simple
        I boarded in a couple different dressage barns for a while. I'd say over half the horses were getting injected. And some of them were just babies - 4, or 5 years old. People talk about it like its nothing. Like its just normal protocol - like grooming or feeding hay.
        Then you boarded at terrible barns. I know of NO dressage barns which inject 4 or 5 year olds. Or even that routinely inject half the barn regardless of age. Is my experience any more or less valid than yours?

        Comment


        • #84
          Two Simple, is there any point in trying to get you to listen to anyone other than yourself? I submit that you don't know quite as much about these horses as you think you do.

          For one, these horses aren't all receiving hock injections. In fact, very few of them are receiving hock injections. In the FEI classes, there is no tolerance for any medication at all, and the people who have these horses don't keep them if they need alot of expensive 'help' to keep going. Why? BEcause it's a small world and its a long road to the FEI, and the information gets around that small world very quickly. Horse xyz is being medicated, don't buy him. Sell him to an American

          I am not sure what connections you have to Dr. Moller and the other European dressage trainers who have these horses, or how much time you have spent working in their barns, but I suspect you have no connection and have spent no time in their barns.

          I very, very seriously doubt that you are aware of what treatment these horses do or don't get.

          I would very seriously doubt that these horses are in work at all, in fact, certainly nothing like what Americans do.

          They get ridden a little bit, yes. But most likely, they have been under saddle for a total of about 6 weeks when they go to these things. They have a saddle put on them at 2 1/2, they walk around. Then they go out for the winter; in fact, they are very rarely even very halter broke at 2 1/2, in the European tradition, which adamantly insists they need to be left alone to be horses. No longeing, no round penning, no long lining, barely halter broke. Go to one of these farms some time if you think you know so much about how these horses are handled, in general, they are handled NOT, lol.

          At 3 or 3 1/2, when they are basically as wild as little furry indians, some brave soul gets on them, and the laughs ensue and the riders fly through the air while the very happy, very athletic horses have their fun.

          A friend of mine got a 3 yr old from a big auction. Imagine her shock when she brought him home, 'This thing is totally wild!' Frankly the animal was EXTREMELY happy, and not at all broke. It thought the saddle and bridle being on was time to unlease all his most EXTREMELY happy moments.

          The auction horses are worked on a straight line, and a little track is dug for them because they don't know how to turn yet...LOL...that has changed little even recently, and the whole reason is because these horses AREN'T worked much young.

          I can say one thing for sure; they are not 'confirmed' or 'trained' in any sense of the word at this point, by any stretch of the imagination. If yiou had ever sat on one, you'd know that. These horses get very, very little work at all before these things.

          What they are doing is completely up to the skill of the rider, who has probably had an hour or two to get to know the horse; at best, a couple weeks and a dozen or so rides. It was from European dressage trainers that I got all the advice not to longe, not to work, not to break my youngster early, not to overdo with him at a young age.

          What you see here, is completely raw talent. These horses aren't at all 'broke' like American dressage horses for amateurs are expected to be, and they have very little training.

          The flavor of a wine doesn't come from the wine being manipulated or fermented or fiddled with. The flavor of a wine comes from the grape itself. And that is exactly what you are seeing here - pure juice.

          They definitely don't have a saddle on them nor are they being longed at 1 1/2 years old, like your horse, which you posted pictures of here last year, at 1 1/2, on a longe line, with a saddle on. In fact, recalling that, it's highly ironic to me that you are complaining about these horses being worked too young.

          Comment


          • #85
            Someone on this thread (too lazy to go back and find out who, sorry)that TB's race at 2-3 and are washed up at 6-7...ummm..not true. Look at all the OTTB's that go on to other careers after racing and are sound and working well into their teens and sometimes longer. Or how about some of the canter horses you see for sale still racing at 9 or 10 yrs..sound. So don't give me that crap. There is a big difference between STARTING a horse young and POUNDING them when they are young. Also there are some horses that have been started very late and not pounded on that still need their hocks done. Sorrry some of the comments just really annoyed me. I rarely come over here but saw the title and was curious. So glad I did or I would have missed seeing this incrediable horse.

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by Capriole View Post
              You don't know this. A really nice horse (not even nearly the quality of this one!) ridden by a tactful rider can produce these results after a very few number of short rides. I see really nice babies who are basically on the bit WTC after a dozen rides. Good horse + good rider = it happens naturally. It may be hard for you to believe if you've never seen it, but it's true.
              Absolutely. Most of the horses that my trainer has started (at age 3) are going round and on the bit within 10 or 15 rides (of maybe 15-20 minutes each). This is not a difficult thing to accomplish if you've done all the right groundwork, and you know, actually know what you're doing.

              All this horse is doing is walk-trot-canter and asking for maybe a little push from behind. Not a big deal. Any of the above horses that my trainer has started could accomplish (and do - the most recent has been under saddle for less than four months is going to his first show in January) this...

              In addition, it's almost the end of the year. He was born in 2003. That means, in reality, he IS actually almost four. I bet he has less than 4 or 5 months under saddle, and maybe 3 months or so of ground work before that. That would put him at 7 months or so of work if my assumption is correct - meaning April or May of this year. That would put him at almost exactly 3 years old, possibly older, depending on when he was born. What's the problem?

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by Two Simple
                I boarded in a couple different dressage barns for a while. I'd say over half the horses were getting injected. And some of them were just babies - 4, or 5 years old. People talk about it like its nothing. Like its just normal protocol - like grooming or feeding hay. It's sad. In fact, it's way more than sad. It's abuse as far as I'm concerned. But hey - that's just me.
                I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that hock injections are cash cows for some veterinary practices. Horse takes a short step, distraught owner calls vet du jour in the barn, vet comes out, says "hock injections," uneducated owner says do it.

                Don't blame this on training methods, Two Simple. It's much more complicated than that. And calling hock injections abuse? Please. You know darn well that they are far from it. But let's not go down that road.

                I still think the under saddle video is one of the most gorgeous things I have seen in a long, long time. And I want to thank the OP for sharing it with us.
                "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                Comment


                • #88
                  People get these injections as well. Mainly athletes. It's hardly abuse to treat a chronic issue. I had a TB that had chronic DJD as a 5 year old- He was broke slowly at 4. The vet said that many young horses have DJD, and hock spurs NOT related to work, but genetics and confirmation. If I had never asked my TB to compete and just let him laze about in the field and trail ride, I may have never noticed that he had bad hocks. There are probably a lot of people that do not compete in a particular dicipline never notice that their horse may have DJD because they never asked them to work that hard. As far as making the assumption that early work causes DJD- you are making an assumtion that the medical or research community will not stand behind- so it's kind of unfair.

                  Originally posted by Two Simple
                  I boarded in a couple different dressage barns for a while. I'd say over half the horses were getting injected. And some of them were just babies - 4, or 5 years old. People talk about it like its nothing. Like its just normal protocol - like grooming or feeding hay. It's sad. In fact, it's way more than sad. It's abuse as far as I'm concerned. But hey - that's just me.
                  http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...nibbystrot.jpg
                  http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t=IMGP0754.jpg

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    I'm not even a dressage rider but have known about 100 dressage horses competing...two were getting injections. They were 10 and 16 years old.

                    The horse in the video is doing w/t/c. At 3 years old. He's not collected, not doing anything he shouldn't be doing. A decent trainer with a horse of good mind can get that in 60 days of training easily. Seeing a horse behaving in an arean doing just walk, trot and canter at 3 years of age in no way indicates he's been ridden/trained/worked heavily from a young age. He's most likely had a rider on his back for 60-90 days, and he's most likely ridden once in a rare while. He'll probably be put back on turnout until next spring, many trainers get a basic start on a 3 year old in their late 3rd year, then give them the winter off and restart in spring. It's a common training method that works quite well. Why is he being shown off at this venue? Well look at him...not to mention that it's better to get them out there slowly and happily at this age to ensure a relaxed professional show career instead of having a spook-moster 5 year old going out for the first time.
                    As for horses being "chased" with bags on whips...what is an Arabian freestyle class? As long as the horse is showing no actual signs of fear...it's a very common and NON abusive way to see their movement. And yes, that's natural movement. Natural movement is not what they do in turnout plodding from hay pile to water supply and back with lower lip hanging and half asleep.
                    It is not the vast majority of dressage horses being injected...just as it's not the same with WP horses getting heads tied or jumpers being poled or whatever such thing for each discipline. If that's what folks are seeing as "the average" in their area...they're in a pretty odd area.
                    You jump in the saddle,
                    Hold onto the bridle!
                    Jump in the line!
                    ...Belefonte

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      [QUOTE=mademoiselle;2027276]Come on people ...

                      "Walk, trot, canter and even lengthening , is not going to ruin a horse for later."

                      A tall man sitting the trot on a 3 year old and riding it in such an up-frame can very well do damage to the horse. It may not but many times it has.

                      "It's better for a horse to work 20 minutes a day with a job than just going crooked with his nose up in the air around for 30 minutes at the walk and trot because he is just a baby."

                      I did not ride my horse like that when she was three but I did not ride her in such an up-frame or sit the trot on her either. The back is not done developing until they are 8.

                      "He is an amazing horse period. I'm sure we would make an upper level eventing horse and probably a Grand Prix jumper. He is balanced, he has an incredible canter."

                      I don't think he would be an upper level eventer. He has too much air time and wastes too much energy on those fabulous gaits. Maybe he can jump, maybe he can't. A lot of Grand Prix dressage horses are terrible jumpers.

                      "As far as breeding, Give me a break ...
                      I would breed a mare any day to this horse. He has great bloodlines, he has an incredible movement, he is well put togethere and has pretty much everything you're looking for in a modern sporthorse. I don't care, if he hasn't won any blue ribbon or if we don't know yet if his offsping is Grand Prix level material. I don't see how you can not improve by breeding to a horse like him."

                      He may turn out to be the breeding stallion of the century. He may not. An incredible stallion with incredible breeding does not always produce well. Take for example the foal reports on Lingh. Somepeople will breed to the nice young one with good bloodlines and some will wait to see his first couple of foal crops.

                      I love this horse. I hope he does hold up and becomes the dressage star his breeding and potential show he could become.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        whops....love those donkeys....

                        Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
                        Are you kidding? I totally want a mule by this stallion! Don't discriminate against donkeys!
                        Do you know how much a ass/this stallion would sell for!?????!!

                        I have seen the wb/ass (is that the correct term????) sell better and more than the pure wb? My vet. just loves them. She said they are hard to find----and she competes in Eventing with it.

                        I still am amazed for some strange reason. I think they are cute---sweet, but I'll stick with the full wb / HORSE....ha ha ha.

                        There is another lady here who has a wb/ass cross.....she does just dressage with..... it is adorable!!!!

                        *Better to have loved than to have never loved at all.*
                        ALWAYS Blessings NEVER losses.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          i'm afraid yoiu don't understand.

                          he isn't 'riding the horse in an up-frame'.

                          that is how the horse goes around naturally. if that horse was loose, he'd go around just like that. that's just HIM, as one person i worked with used to say.

                          like i said, this is the juice. pure juice. 100 % pure juice.

                          and to some extent, it is how all horses would go around - balanced and natural - if they didn't have their heads artificially held down by riders with some strange training ah...'philosophy'.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Collected????? Why, bless your heart, you haven't even seen "collected".

                            Ever watch a horse snorting and blowing and trotting around when first turned out on a chilly autumn morning? It moves very similarly to the horse in the video. Lofty gaits, gorgeous.

                            But neither the horse in the field nor the horse in the video are what could be considered "collected" - at least I don't think so.

                            Edited for clarification, and I still botched it up. Hopefully someone understands what I am saying and can maybe do a better job of explaining what I mean!
                            Last edited by hitchinmygetalong; Nov. 29, 2006, 04:31 PM. Reason: clarification!
                            "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              I am cracking UP at the idea that I'm criticizing TS because I'm a DQ.

                              NOTE: I'm a QH and TWH owning noboby in Alabama who does nothing but trail ride. I have sat in a dressage saddle, once. I was, I think, 16 years old at the time. That was 1986.

                              I am critical of her because the only thing in the horse world she seems to think is ok, is to trail ride a horse who was never sat upon until they were 4+ years old, in a hackamore, barefoot. Nothing else can compete. Nothing else is OK.

                              Too Simple, indeed.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Thanks to whoever posted the video. Lovely horse.

                                That's not the dreaded 'passagey trot'. It's easy to tell the 'passagey trot' because the horse gets stuck and cannot do transitions within the gait. They really get stuck. If you have ever seen it you won't mistake it for anything else. This boy does not have that problem. Lovely...

                                No doubt he'd be a poor race horse and he may not excel at saddle seat or cattle penning or barrel racing and who knows how he is on the trails - perhaps he's a prince on the trail- but he appears to be quite fine for the job for which he has been bred and trained .

                                And peeps, look , the ignore thing works great on the troll so if you guys would stop responding to the crap we ignorers would not have to read it! Help us out here. Trolls love attention . And yes, it's a troll.

                                So now the troll will press her alert button. Please note I have named no one. Shoe fit thingy.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Done, oh wise one. Thank you for the reminder.

                                  Back to the regularly scheduled channel. Educate me please.

                                  What breed is this bad boy, anyway?
                                  "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                                    i'm afraid yoiu don't understand.

                                    he isn't 'riding the horse in an up-frame'.

                                    that is how the horse goes around naturally. if that horse was loose, he'd go around just like that. that's just HIM, as one person i worked with used to say.

                                    and to some extent, it is how all horses would go around - balanced and natural - if they didn't have their heads artificially held down by riders with some strange training ah...'philosophy'.
                                    slc I think I understand just fine. I have a horse that is built very similar to this one. She is also quite talented (though granted not in this horse's league. Still many trainers and judges have said she has definite potential to be competitive up to Grand Prix.) My horse at 4 is going quite well. She will show 5 year old FEI next season. I do not hold her down with some strange training philosphy. Nor did I carry my reins so short and my hands so high and sit on her at 3.

                                    That is not the horse's natural carriage. He carries himself much differently and moves much differently for that matter when he is free. Just look at the free video of him. Also towards the end of the video it looks like he is tired in this carriage and wants to stretch down more.

                                    There are people who believe this kind of riding is fine for a 3 year old who is very talented and people who don't. I just don't think it is OK. Doesn't make me a moron.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
                                      Done, oh wise one. Thank you for the reminder.

                                      Back to the regularly scheduled channel. Educate me please.

                                      What breed is this bad boy, anyway?
                                      He's listed as a German Warmblood on allbreed, but both parents are Brandenburgs.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by kkj View Post
                                        slc I think I understand just fine. I have a horse that is built very similar to this one. She is also quite talented (though granted not in this horse's league. Still many trainers and judges have said she has definite potential to be competitive up to Grand Prix.) My horse at 4 is going quite well. She will show 5 year old FEI next season. I do not hold her down with some strange training philosphy. Nor did I carry my reins so short and my hands so high and sit on her at 3.

                                        That is not the horse's natural carriage. He carries himself much differently and moves much differently for that matter when he is free. Just look at the free video of him. Also towards the end of the video it looks like he is tired in this carriage and wants to stretch down more.

                                        There are people who believe this kind of riding is fine for a 3 year old who is very talented and people who don't. I just don't think it is OK. Doesn't make me a moron.
                                        Are you smoking crack? Even I can tell that is a different horse in the loose video! It says so right in the link that you click. Quaterback is by QuatermanXBrandenburg. The loose videos are all of various other stallions (A Sandro Hit son, A Stedinger son, and a Florencio son)

                                        OF COURSE the horse in the loose video moved differently it is not the same horse!

                                        Jeez! I show Arabians and half-Arabians in SHIH, WP, HP and I team rope and I can see that this 3yo is one to watch.
                                        Last edited by Equinetech; Nov. 29, 2006, 05:02 PM. Reason: spelling
                                        "And remember-if it gets really bad, there's always tequila..." J.P.

                                        No horse should be Peepless

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Two Simple
                                          Exactly kkj!

                                          He is a very lovely animal with gorgeous gaits. But there is absolutely no telling what he will pass on to babies and what he won't. And this is not a strong indication of what his gaits will develop to be.
                                          That is the case with any stallion. There was no telling what your horse would end up like either when his or her breeder put the dam in foal.

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