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intro level horses vs higher level horses using intro level as a warm up

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Coreene View Post
    I look forward to the day when the worst thing I can get my panties in a wad about is someone else, who has eff all to do with me, shows walk trot.
    Ain't that the truth ...
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

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    • #62
      I'm an intro level rider on an intro level horse. We're both green, middle age and are working hard to master the basics - rhythm and suppleness are still a challenge.

      At the lower levels, it's impossible, I think, to compare competitors because of the vast range of skill sets and horses. By the time you get to the upper levels, a certain amount of 'natural selection' has taken place. Once can more reasonably compare competitors to each other. Point is - drawing comparisons between intro-level competitors just doesn't seem to be relevant.

      Others on this thread have suggested - and I wholeheartedly agree - that at the lower levels, you're competing with yourself, against your prior scores. So even if someone one on a much fancier horse decides to 'warm up' in the intro ring, heck, I don't care. It's not about the ribbon IMHO.
      Don't wrassle with a hog. You just get dirty, and the hog likes it.

      Collecting Thoroughbreds - tales of a re-rider and some TBs

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      • #63
        In dressage one is competing with their horse against an ideal standard. It's the test sheet and comments that count. And they are subjective too.

        So..fair? Take the good feedback and use it. Let the rest go.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
          At any recognized show, it isn't possible to show multiple levels lower as a warm-up. A horse can only show in two consecutive levels at any given show. Therefore, if the horse is in intro A or B, the highest it can show at that show is training 4.
          .
          They have Intro A and B at recognized shows???
          We do not have an overpopulation of dogs, we have an under population of responsible dog owners!!!

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Arizona DQ View Post
            They have Intro A and B at recognized shows???
            Our local Arab sport horse shows do, although they're usually age limited to 10 and under.
            Originally posted by HuntrJumpr
            No matter what level of showing you're doing, you are required to have pants on.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
              Admittedly, I don't read the hunter/jumper forum. I would have the same opinion in the hunter arena as well.

              Sure, people pay their entries like everyone else. That a pro or upper level ammie *can* enter an intro class doesn't mean that they should, in my opinion. People *can* do alot of things that aren't particularly sportsmanlinke. I argue - in agreement with Arathita - that it comes down to sportsmanship. I am very happy and very proud that the dressage riders and trainers I know share my sense of ethics in regards to the sport. Perhaps that is why they are my friends and we get along so well. I'm proud of our sportsmanship and it is why I support them at every chance I get.
              Your response is so interesting, because when similar posts were made on the h/j thread, those folks were soundly thrashed. The few times that "sportsmanship" was mentioned, the replies were mostly "Just work harder and learn to ride better, and you won't mind when the big fish come into the little pond."

              I agree 100% that it IS a sportsmanship issue, and suggested on the other thread that it's the trainers' responsibility to teach that lesson, and decide which shows/classes are appropriate for the skill level of the client. Meaning keep your experienced riders/horses in their own sandbox.

              The reply to that was that the trainers need the money, and they'll take their clients wherever the clients want to go.

              If you can find that thread (perhaps on page 2) I guarantee you'll see a very different side to competing. It was a real eye-opener and made for very interesting reading !

              "Sports don't make character; they reveal it."

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              • #67
                This scenario is not plausible to me. I just can't imagine why you would want to do Intro as a warm-up for an upper-level horse since you need to do a lot more than W/T to warm up this kind of horse. The only way I can imagine an upper-level horse in Intro is if the rider were very, very green.

                I have been riding my young greenie at Intro at a couple of shows this year and personally, I can't wait to get out of Intro hell.

                Even my 25 year old TR level mare hates it. When my greenie was temporarily out of commission due to shoeing problems, I practised the tests with her to help me in memorizing them and she was NOT happy.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Arizona DQ View Post
                  They have Intro A and B at recognized shows???
                  My GMO has A&B at recog. shows. No limit on the age of riders.
                  __________________________
                  "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                  the best day in ten years,
                  you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

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                  • #69
                    USEF doesn't have an Intro Level Tests. No Intro Level Tests can be recognized by USEF. USEF is a national equestrian organization that houses all disciplines: dressage, jumping reining, gaited and etc…)

                    USDF on the other hand, does have Into Level Tests, but those are local GMO club shows, not a nationally recognized shows. USDF only responsible for dressage.

                    TDs (technical delegates) must be present only at USEF recognized shows. USEF Rule Book must be observed only at the USEF recognized shows. That said, lots of GMO and even privet schooling shows do observe The Rule Book, but there is still no representative from USEF to make sure that everybody is paying by the book.

                    + is that at GMO shows you don't have to pay USEF fees or be USEF members = saves you $.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Arizona DQ View Post
                      They have Intro A and B at recognized shows???
                      Some definitely offer it, even if it doesn't count towards anything. Saugerties this weekend did not (as far as I know) but I definitely saw it at the Windy Hollow Hunt at Sussex show. It is listed on their prizelist and that was very much a recognized show: http://www.windyhollowhunt.org/Dress...WHH%20July.pdf

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
                        Are you sure these were not cases of quality horses being ridden very well? I have heard the railbirds sniping about horses showing in Intro that obviously shouldn't be in Intro, because they got such great scores, when the reality is that they were young horses with fabulous movement and good minds, that were well prepared and well ridden. These horses and riders really do put the rest of us at a disadvantage! Seriously!
                        Originally posted by AppendixQHLover View Post
                        Nope..I know the horses and riders very well.

                        My trainer took her green as grass holsteiner in and the mare did fantasic! She got higer percentages than me but she is 10x better than I will ever be.
                        I'm confused. What you described is exactly what I'm talking about. A green horse that is legitimately competing in a Intro class.
                        Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Dressage Art View Post
                          USEF doesn't have an Intro Level Tests. No Intro Level Tests can be recognized by USEF. USEF is a national equestrian organization that houses all disciplines: dressage, jumping reining, gaited and etc…)

                          USDF on the other hand, does have Into Level Tests, but those are local GMO club shows, not a nationally recognized shows. USDF only responsible for dressage.
                          Intro classes may not be recognized by USEF, but they very much are allowed to be included in a USEF-licensed show. You just don't have to have the horse/rider memberships that are required for the other levels. That is also why Intro classes are always designated as Open classes.

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                          • #73
                            You can show one level up (or down...however you want to see it) at a rated show. Someone can warm up in a 2nd level class and then show 3rd level or warm up 3rd level and then show 4th level. It is not just in intro. that this happens.

                            You can not use intro to warm up for first level, just training level.

                            I think it is a fair rule.

                            Personally, I think if you are not ready for a training level test your money would be better spent getting mileage at a schooling show, rather than a rated show.

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                            • #74
                              In our area I haven't seen intro at many recognized shows. We hold schooling shows and there are no "entry" requirements. A pair - horse and rider - can jump back and forth from intro to training since it is one level but we do limit year end awards. Once they have moved to a canter class any points in intro don't go towards awards for that year. The fact that alot of horses are more experienced is just a fact of life. Trainers bring students on school horses that have done much more. That's a good way to learn. And most trainers won't show intro on a green horse - will wait until training but a few do and there is no rule against it. It's just a way to get the horse exposed. I haven't seen much of them using intro as a "warm up" for training level but I suppose it happens, it's not against the rules. But intro is just that - Introductory for either rider or horse. I think if you and your horse are both brand new to showing you should just be happy with doing your personal best and not worrying about the competetion. You are just getting your feet wet! It is not feasible for our size shows to try to split classes into more specific divisions. The recognized shows do for adult amatures, young riders, professionals. But you won't find that at intro in your average local schooling shows.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Galley View Post
                                has anyone experienced riding in an intro level test A or B as their first test in their life or their horses life and competed against more advanced level horses who are using the intro class as their warm up and then win 1, 2 or 3 in the class for points? is this fair to the lower level rider and or horse who is a first timer competing against horses who are doing training and above? thoughts are welcome.
                                First, WHATEVER test you ride as "the first test in your life" you are going to be "competed against more advanced level horses "

                                Last time I rode in an Intro test at a dressage show (with a very green horse) the people that won were scoring in the high 70s, I think we were in the high 50s. Big deal. Who knows WHY they weren't going Training, but that is there issue, not mine.

                                If a horse goes in Intro, the horse can also do Training, but NOT anything above Training.

                                Within our GMO (CDCTA) however, you can only get year end POINTS for Intro if the rider has never competed above Intro.
                                Janet

                                chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

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                                • #76
                                  You can only compete in consecutive levels at one show, even if you have two different riders. However, if you're at a venue which holds back-to-back one day shows over a weekend (ie. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are three separate competitions with separate entries), that doesn't apply between different days. So, you could legally show Intro B and Training 4 the first day (say with
                                  the owner's young child), Second 4 and Third 1 on Saturday with the AA owner, and I2 and PSG on Sunday with the trainer. I doubt that happens very often, though.

                                  Personally, I've only shown Intro twice, both at unrecognised HTs, with a much more experienced horse (Preliminary eventing and 2nd Level Dressage with a different rider). The dressage test was linked to the fence height, and I wanted to keep things small and easy, since we were new to each other.
                                  Stay me with coffee, comfort me with chocolate, for I am sick of love.

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                                  • #77
                                    If you are showing at a level you are well prepared for, it shouldn't matter who else shows up. I always show a full level below what I am training. I've never been grossly out classed. I do ride lots of nice warmbloods, but also have shown plenty of non-warmbloods and still taken home blues. I will show these warmbloods in training or intro even if I see fit based on their training/experience level. With a green talented horse, they might be capable of easily getting a 70%+ at those levels, but are also easily capable of having a complete and very ugly melt down.

                                    Plus, it's fun as heck to beat out anyone who shows at a low level just to win. Back when I first started showing, I entered the open division (basically anything over first in this show series.) There was one local trainer who ALWAYS won this division. She was showing second level on her "upper level" horse. I showed 3rd and won anyway:-) Boy was she mad!

                                    I'm just saying, go in prepared and you'll always do well. At low levels, you don't need a fancy horse to get 7's and 8's. I've gotten those scores plenty of times on ponies dragged out of someone's back yard.

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