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intro level horses vs higher level horses using intro level as a warm up

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  • #41
    Does it make a difference the amount of time someone has been at that level?

    Personally, I don't care, but this made me wonder what someone thought of someone that just spends their life at training level. I know an older lady that never plans on doing more than training level. She qualifies for and goes to Devon every year. Her horse has the test memorized and can probably do it sans rider....would people who wonder about upper level horses at lower tests think this is unfair also?

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    • #42
      It's an interesting issue. I'm sure you get people stuck at Training level because they cannot sit a trot to save their lives. I've tried a few moves from First and found most of them beyond where I am right now (maresy thinks otherwise, and schools second with someone who really knows what they are doing.) At this point, as a pair we are barely competent at Training, but that's where we are showing, mostly because she has a lovely canter, her very best gait, that I want to show off. (If there were walk-canter intro tests, I'd do them!)

      I do see a lot of people do the Intro B -- Training 1 combination at shows, and think it's fine. Intro B -- Training 4 might give me pause, though.
      You have to have experiences to gain experience.

      1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

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      • #43
        Originally posted by slc2 View Post
        I wouldn't recommend the above. The horse should be doing the next higher level in his sleep at home before one shows at the given level. No feet wetting. Confirmed. In his sleep. I've never worked with anyone in 40 years who has recommended anything else - or stood by and ALLOWED anything else. The usual reaction to anything else is 'then get another trainer, I'm done with ya'.
        Why? I did "wet my feet" this year on 4th level and got 4 scores of 60%+ . That is double of what I need for my USDF Silver Medal from 4th level. Next year, if the God is willing I'll still stay at the same 4th level. What is exactly wrong with that from your point of view?

        Sounds like you are saying that my 4th level "wetting my feet" scores are not good enough for you and you tell students like me: "I'm done with ya'"... Tho, I do know some trainers who only like to train $$$$$ fancy horses and sneeze on anything lower than 70%... You are saying you are one of those kind?

        Thanks God that I don't have a trainer like that Actually, I don't even have a trainer, I train-up my own horse myself.
        Last edited by Dressage Art; Aug. 16, 2009, 10:43 PM.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
          Seriously? Intro? Walk-trot classes as a warm up? Have either of you ever entered these classes as a warm up with an upper level horse? I'm curious to know who on this thread has entered a class *several levels* lower than what you are showing as a *warmup*. To me, the sportsmanlike thing would be to enter the class HC - you know - because the ribbon shouldn't matter to a upper level competitor like it does to the truly lower level competitor... it's the score that counts, right?
          Ummm...a very similar topic is on the h/j forum. USEF "A" rated show riders/horses are coming down to the small county shows and showing against less experienced exhibitors.
          Riding hors de concours was discussed too, and it turns out that not very many do that.
          They say they paid their entries like everyone else, so they should be judged liked everyone else.

          I confess I started that thread simply to get opinions, but it really opened up a Pandora's box, and the inside wasn't pretty.

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          • #45
            I also want to point out that there is a RULE that a rider on the same horse can SHOW only on consecutive levels such as:

            Intro + Training
            Training + 1st
            1st + 2nd and so on.

            It's against the rules to show "SEVERAL" levels lower

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            • #46
              Nope. Not for non championship classes.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by Mardi View Post
                Ummm...a very similar topic is on the h/j forum. USEF "A" rated show riders/horses are coming down to the small county shows and showing against less experienced exhibitors.
                Riding hors de concours was discussed too, and it turns out that not very many do that.
                They say they paid their entries like everyone else, so they should be judged liked everyone else.

                I confess I started that thread simply to get opinions, but it really opened up a Pandora's box, and the inside wasn't pretty.
                Admittedly, I don't read the hunter/jumper forum. I would have the same opinion in the hunter arena as well.

                Sure, people pay their entries like everyone else. That a pro or upper level ammie *can* enter an intro class doesn't mean that they should, in my opinion. People *can* do alot of things that aren't particularly sportsmanlinke. I argue - in agreement with Arathita - that it comes down to sportsmanship. I am very happy and very proud that the dressage riders and trainers I know share my sense of ethics in regards to the sport. Perhaps that is why they are my friends and we get along so well. I'm proud of our sportsmanship and it is why I support them at every chance I get.
                Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Dressage Art View Post
                  I also want to point out that there is a RULE that a rider on the same horse can SHOW only on consecutive levels such as:

                  Intro + Training
                  Training + 1st
                  1st + 2nd and so on.

                  It's against the rules to show "SEVERAL" levels lower
                  Is this for championship classes or all classes? I could have sworn that these restrictions don't apply to regular recognized shows, especially if more than one rider is riding a horse. Are you sure? I could have sworn that some intro level ponies and kids I know had their ponies shown at higher levels by moms/trainers at the same show but I'm not 100% positive right now. Or maybe it was two separate shows that happened at one weekend...and that is a pretty common occurance these days, too.
                  Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Ajierene View Post
                    Does it make a difference the amount of time someone has been at that level?

                    Personally, I don't care, but this made me wonder what someone thought of someone that just spends their life at training level. I know an older lady that never plans on doing more than training level. She qualifies for and goes to Devon every year. Her horse has the test memorized and can probably do it sans rider....would people who wonder about upper level horses at lower tests think this is unfair also?
                    They have training level at Devon???
                    I thought Devon started at Fourth.
                    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                    Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                    Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
                      Is this for championship classes or all classes? I could have sworn that these restrictions don't apply to regular recognized shows, especially if more than one rider is riding a horse. Are you sure? I could have sworn that some intro level ponies and kids I know had their ponies shown at higher levels by moms/trainers at the same show but I'm not 100% positive right now. Or maybe it was two separate shows that happened at one weekend...and that is a pretty common occurance these days, too.
                      The rule book clearly states that horses may be entered in no more than two consecutive levels at any one show. And I'm 100% sure, because I just looked it up and read it.

                      There are two-day shows that work it out so that they are technically two separate shows, so you may see a horse or pony in (for instance) Intro and Training one day, and 2nd/3rd the other day. That's legal. But the horse may not compete at Intro and then anything higher than Training level at the same show.
                      Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
                        The rule book clearly states that horses may be entered in no more than two consecutive levels at any one show. And I'm 100% sure, because I just looked it up and read it.

                        There are two-day shows that work it out so that they are technically two separate shows, so you may see a horse or pony in (for instance) Intro and Training one day, and 2nd/3rd the other day. That's legal. But the horse may not compete at Intro and then anything higher than Training level at the same show.
                        It seems a lot of people here "have seen" stuff that does not actually exist in reality...

                        Here is the rulebook, in case anyone is interested in actually reading it:

                        DR119 Participation in Dressage Competitions
                        ...
                        2. Horses may compete in no more than one Licensed Competition on the same day and are limited to a maximum of three Dressage rides per day at Fourth Level and below or two Dressage rides per day above Fourth Level. Horses competing in FEI Para-Equestrian tests are limited to a maximum of three Dressage rides per day including equivalent USEF or USDF tests. Horses may enter no more than two consecutive levels, Freestyle levels included, at any one competition (refer to the following chart).

                        http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2009/08-DR.pdf


                        But whatever, I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for the Training Level division at DAD when I go as a spectator this year. If I had only known that existed it would have been a nice thing to try to qualify for this year with my hunter that just switched disciplines. Perhaps hunter Devon will also kindly start offering the 3' Adult Amateur division and then he can go twice a year.

                        Everyone has their panties in a twist on this thread for stuff that does not even EXIST.
                        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                          It seems a lot of people here "have seen" stuff that does not actually exist in reality...

                          Everyone has their panties in a twist on this thread for stuff that does not even EXIST.

                          It exists at non-USEF shows.
                          ... _. ._ .._. .._

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                            It exists at non-USEF shows.
                            Well the good news then is that if you don't like the rules in the non-USEF sandbox that allegedly allows this multi-level show riding, you can always switch over to the USEF sandbox where the rules are more to your liking.

                            It appears there is a whole sandbox out there with rules conveniently pre-tailored to your concerns.

                            Your score really ought to be the same regardless.

                            No one is forcing anyone to horseshow in a sandbox they don't like.
                            The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                            Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                            Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                            The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                            • #54
                              I jsut did a dressage schooling show yesterday and there were several riders that did that. One of them won with a score of 70% and the other was just .5% over me. I improved my person scores by 5% and got a 8 for the first time in the medium walk. (That is tough for my lazy boy).

                              The score meant more to me than my ribbon because we improved our score so much. Also my gelding is in love with the mare that went with us. I had to really work to keep his focus and I did it.
                              OTTB - Hurricane Denton - Kane - the big dog!
                              Tuggy - RIP 9/12/2016 - Wait for me at the bridge
                              Foster LolaMaria AKA LolaBean (Boxer)

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                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Galley View Post
                                my question more about the ability and learning level of the horse. Is is right to have Intro Level Walk/Trot allowed for horses competing at Training Level and above? In Eventing one can can select Horse or Rider as a category. Would this not be a more fair way to exhibit and test horses in dressage, too? Just a thought.
                                As far as I am concerned, the difference between intro and training level is more about the rider than the horse. If the rider is not comfortable cantering, he/she should enter intro regardless whether the horse has been competed higher level. I don't see any problem with that.

                                If the horse rider combination is showing successfully at training level but decide to enter intro just to win the ribbon, yeah, it's tacky. If the pair is just showing training (meaning not successfully), there is no problem with them showing intro to get more ring experience or just for the fun of it.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by AppendixQHLover View Post
                                  I jsut did a dressage schooling show yesterday and there were several riders that did that. One of them won with a score of 70% and the other was just .5% over me.
                                  Are you sure these were not cases of quality horses being ridden very well? I have heard the railbirds sniping about horses showing in Intro that obviously shouldn't be in Intro, because they got such great scores, when the reality is that they were young horses with fabulous movement and good minds, that were well prepared and well ridden. These horses and riders really do put the rest of us at a disadvantage! Seriously!
                                  Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
                                    Are you sure these were not cases of quality horses being ridden very well? I have heard the railbirds sniping about horses showing in Intro that obviously shouldn't be in Intro, because they got such great scores, when the reality is that they were young horses with fabulous movement and good minds, that were well prepared and well ridden. These horses and riders really do put the rest of us at a disadvantage! Seriously!


                                    That reminds me of the time a lady came up to me and asked when my mare was going to get out of second level. When I told her that the mare was 5 years old, in her second year showing and had just shown SL for the 3rd time she changed her tune.

                                    I am old enough to remember when there was no Intro level. I think that we stepped backwards when Intro was created. But then that is just MHO.
                                    Mary Lou
                                    http://www.homeagainfarm.com

                                    https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

                                    Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

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                                    • #58
                                      I look forward to the day when the worst thing I can get my panties in a wad about is someone else, who has eff all to do with me, shows walk trot.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
                                        Are you sure these were not cases of quality horses being ridden very well? I have heard the railbirds sniping about horses showing in Intro that obviously shouldn't be in Intro, because they got such great scores, when the reality is that they were young horses with fabulous movement and good minds, that were well prepared and well ridden. These horses and riders really do put the rest of us at a disadvantage! Seriously!
                                        Nope..I know the horses and riders very well.

                                        My trainer took her green as grass holsteiner in and the mare did fantasic! She got higer percentages than me but she is 10x better than I will ever be.
                                        OTTB - Hurricane Denton - Kane - the big dog!
                                        Tuggy - RIP 9/12/2016 - Wait for me at the bridge
                                        Foster LolaMaria AKA LolaBean (Boxer)

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                                        • #60
                                          There was a horse showing 1st level at the show I was just in who was about 18hh and looked like he was born doing GP movements. I'm sure he was young and green, but damn- he looked good doing 1st level.

                                          Now that I think about it, I can't figure how that is at all on topic for this thread- but it made me think about how many ways we can be at a disadvantage. Can you imagine showing intro against Totilas at his first show? Sometimes we just have to be grateful for what we have and not worry about what others are doing.

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