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Young Horse Training Question

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  • Young Horse Training Question

    For those of you who have backed and trained youngsters.

    I have a young horse with an excellent temperament who was backed 2 months ago and is ridden 3X a week. He has been a dream so far, very easy, the trainer has even walked him around the fields alone (no companion horse) and he handles it w/ no problem.

    Although my discipline is dressage, the trainer I picked is H/J with excellent references. She has started to canter the horse and he often misses the right lead and when he gets it swaps back to the wrong lead. I made the comment to her this week we should slow down on the cantering and go back to walk/trot/halt,etc. and if he offers canter she can just go with it. This gal rolls her eyes and makes a comment that we should be doing exercises to strengthen his weak side so he can pick up the correct lead. Then I get a little backhanded joke . . . I've never understood why dressage riders wait so long to teach lead changes.

    Just to make it clear, I really like this gal and realize we have a small clash of the riding cultures and all the work she has done so far is quite good. There is something in the back of my mind that is telling me to slow it down a notch due to this horse's willing/kind temperament, I don't want him pushed.

    BTW, this is my third youngster, but have never had one so easy, easy. This is my first time working w/ this trainer.

    What has been your experience with canter and the young horse?
    "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" Richard Bach

  • #2
    That they're all different?
    Some find it easy, some find it hard, some horses find their balance under a rider more quickly than others. I prefer the slow approach, and if the horse's walk/trot work is far enough along that canter can be introduced, then if they are having difficulty with one lead I am quite happy for them to pick up the correct lead, canter a few strides with lots of praise and go back to trot until the balance and strength improves.
    I also like lungeing so when they are in this phase I'll work on the canter first on the lunge, make sure they can balance themselves on the lunge without a rider before asking for it at all under saddle.
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.

    Comment


    • #3
      This gal rolls her eyes and makes a comment that we should be doing exercises to strengthen his weak side so he can pick up the correct lead. Then I get a little backhanded joke . . . I've never understood why dressage riders wait so long to teach lead changes.
      Yes, exercises to strengthen the weak side are appropriate, but not by insisting on canter. I would stay with trot until the horse is more symetrical.

      The second comment would concern me. If this trainer doesn't understand why dressage riders wait to teach changes, then I would be concerned that she doesn't fully understand the importance of straightness.

      Comment


      • #4
        Lots of different ways to do things and finish at the same end...just saying...
        Shop online at
        www.KoperEquine.com
        http://sweetolivefarm.com/services.php

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        • #5
          Unless it isn't the same thing, LOL.

          For those of you who have backed and trained youngsters.

          --When a younger person, yes, more recently, young horses and green horses, but too old to back youngsters these days.

          ...backed 2 months ago and is ridden 3X a week....Although my discipline is dressage, the trainer I picked is H/J ...She has started to canter the horse and he often misses the right lead and when he gets it swaps back to the wrong lead.

          I made the comment to her this week we should slow down on the cantering and go back to walk/trot/halt,etc. and if he offers canter she can just go with it.

          --Even in this situation I don't see why avoid cantering. How will the horse get better at it otherwise. Unless the horse is severely under-developed, so weak from recovering from a hind quarter or back injury. Most youngsters can canter on both leads, if helped to do so.

          This gal rolls her eyes and makes a comment that we should be doing exercises to strengthen his weak side so he can pick up the correct lead.

          --What exercises are going to make a green horse not a green horse? All horses are born very slightly different on either side - they BECOME weak on one side after years of being ridden crooked and unevenly.

          --Horses pick up the wrong lead, usually, because of the way they are ridden, even green horses, even just backed horses. Put someone else up on your horse before concluding horsey needs some special exercises.

          Then I get a little backhanded joke . . . I've never understood why dressage riders wait so long to teach lead changes.

          --Because they do flying lead changes from a collected canter. Hunt seat flying lead changes are supposed to be flat across the ground, not collected, and are supposed to be done out of a half seat hand gallop or hunter canter.

          -- You want hunter changes and a hunter canter? Train your horse with hunt seat methods. You may feel awful smug about it, but only til you show dressage at third level and get served.

          --LOL. Still doesn't mean you should avoid cantering.

          Just to make it clear, I really like this gal and realize we have a small clash of the riding cultures and all the work she has done so far is quite good. There is something in the back of my mind that is telling me to slow it down a notch due to this horse's willing/kind temperament, I don't want him pushed.

          --The assumption is that cantering, which is pretty natural for a horse, is 'pushing' the horse. And that he is not picking up one lead because he is being 'pushed too fast', when actually, he's probably going along thinking, boy, i wish someone would straighten this out, so i can canter. Horses LOVE to canter, and it strengthens them and develops them and supples them and gives them a reward for putting up with all that boring stuff.

          --Training without one gait is not good, balanced training. If the horse is not picking up one lead, there is a riding problem. Correct the problem, the horse will pick up the canter lead.

          BTW, this is my third youngster, but have never had one so easy, easy. This is my first time working w/ this trainer.

          What has been your experience with canter and the young horse?

          --My experience has been that horses that don't pick up one lead, get a different rider, and they pick up that lead. They need a balancing or straightening that they aren't getting.

          --If the horse is so weak he can't canter around the ring on one lead, get a vet. If he's a giant baby huey and can't hang onto his lead around a corner because he's a little gawky, take him out in a big field and canter him.
          Last edited by slc2; Aug. 7, 2009, 09:30 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ToN Farm View Post
            Yes, exercises to strengthen the weak side are appropriate, but not by insisting on canter. I would stay with trot until the horse is more symetrical.

            The second comment would concern me. If this trainer doesn't understand why dressage riders wait to teach changes, then I would be concerned that she doesn't fully understand the importance of straightness.
            I don't see asking for canter as a problem. However, if this is your future dressage horse, I would not want changes introduced at this point. Changes for a hunter or jumper have very different requirements than for a dressage horse. Even though he is young and green, it is best to think about the long haul and your hoped for destination.
            Mary Lou
            http://www.homeagainfarm.com

            https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

            Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

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            • #7
              My question is less 'what stage of training' this horse is at & more 'could this horse be in a growth spurt?'

              I had a 4 y.o. warmblood cross who "lost" his right lead for several weeks once. Had it consistently & "poof!" it was gone. My then-trainer told me not to worry about it - when youngsters go through growth spurts, their balance sometimes changes so they aren't comfortable doing certain things. He said the right lead would return when the horse was physically ready.

              Two weeks later, it was back. We didn't do anything special to get it back, just waited for the horse to be ready. Shortly thereafter, he lost his left lead for a shorter period of time in a different growth spurt. It, too, returned without incident (other than low scores at a schooling show during the period it went missing!)

              It really could be as simple as that.
              Hidden Echo Farm, Carlisle, PA -- home of JC palomino sire Canadian Kid (1990 - 2013) & AQHA sire Lark's Favorite, son of Rugged Lark.

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              • #8
                Ditto slc2.

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                • #9
                  check is in the mail hon.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ToN Farm View Post
                    Yes, exercises to strengthen the weak side are appropriate, but not by insisting on canter. I would stay with trot until the horse is more symetrical.

                    The second comment would concern me. If this trainer doesn't understand why dressage riders wait to teach changes, then I would be concerned that she doesn't fully understand the importance of straightness.
                    OK, but consider the notion that there are like eleventy billion ponies at WEF doing their lead changes toting 6yos around, and around the corner at White Fences are eleventy billion 40-50ish ammy ladies dreaming of one day, perhaps mayhap, if the stars are kind enough to align and if they have the lesson of their life, getting to do a lead change.

                    [Cue Slick's clarion cry "IT'S NOT THE SAME EGADS IT'S NOT THE SAME."]

                    Perhaps a horse's entire dressage career will not be ruined if his early lead changes are not poifekt.
                    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                    Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                    Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                    The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                    • #11
                      Actually that would be the hardest thing there is to fix once the animal has 'learned' (either by oops, do it again, ooops, do it again, etc or by just intentionally teaching him the wrong way) and yes, actually, it doesn't usually GET fixed.

                      And yes, actually, hunter and dressage changes are different, according to all the dressage trainers I've worked with, AND according to any of the hunter trainers I've ever even spoken with about it.

                      And no, actually, horses don't learn to do things by making the same mistake over and over and one time out of ten doing it right, actually, that way, they learn to make the same mistake over and over again. As one trainer told one of her students, 'do anything else wrong over and over, but not that'.

                      Repeating mistakes in changes is not good. It lowers and lowers and lowers the chance that the horse will do mistake free changes when it counts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                        Actually that would be the hardest thing there is to fix once the animal has 'learned' (either by oops, do it again, ooops, do it again, etc or by just intentionally teaching him the wrong way) and yes, actually, it doesn't usually GET fixed.

                        And yes, actually, hunter and dressage changes are different, according to all the dressage trainers I've worked with, AND according to any of the hunter trainers I've ever even spoken with about it.

                        And no, actually, horses don't learn to do things by making the same mistake over and over and one time out of ten doing it right, actually, that way, they learn to make the same mistake over and over again. As one trainer told one of her students, 'do anything else wrong over and over, but not that'.

                        Repeating mistakes in changes is not good. It lowers and lowers and lowers the chance that the horse will do mistake free changes when it counts.
                        Well I guess I'm just entirely screwed then because here I am doing dressage with my show hunter (trained WRONG WRONG WRONG by me, of course) and an ex western pleasure horse (omg the EGREGIOUS WRONGNESS lawd halp us)

                        Good to know they were ruined before I even set foot in the dressage barn.

                        Guess I'll hang up my hat and retire 'em.
                        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No, not wrong, just different. And if this is a young horse that is destined for a competitive dressage career, why not teach it the correct way FOR THAT DISCIPLINE from the start? It really will make life easier for both horse and rider down the line.

                          Even at first/second level, having a horse that thinks it's supposed to autochange rather than countercanter a loop or a serpentine makes life a lot more difficult. You don't want to get after it for changing because you really don't want it to think change = bad, because that'll screw you when you get to actually doing flying changes.

                          Unless of course you just want to be argumentative for the sake of it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This is not a hard one to handle. Tell the trainer that he is not going to be a hunter and it is very important that he not be encouraged to swap or change leads at this time in his life, that it will mess up his future training.

                            It's always good to mention how happy you are with the other aspects of his training at this point

                            Otherwise, I think there are a lot of hunter trainers that do a better job starting young horses than dressage trainers do. They are willing to get off their backs, to be more casual about exposure to things (ever been to a hunter show? pandemonium. A dressage show? like a funeral.) and to allow the horse to learn to balance himself. Maybe your trainer is one of the good ones and just needs a reminder about your ultimate goals for this horse.
                            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                            ---
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by atr View Post
                              Unless of course you just want to be argumentative for the sake of it.
                              No, I am actually pursuing dressage on a show hunter I made myself with no thought at the time of ever doing dressage with him, but based on the responses people always give to these threads about the sacrosanct lead changes we should be entirely and completely effed. It is like Lead Change Terrorism or something to keep everyone stridently on Orange Alert about how dangerous doing a lead change can be.

                              My horse was a dyed in the wool auto changer like nobody's business, looooves to do changes, and did indeed anticipate them with verve when we turned down the diagonal the first few times. (OH NOOEEZ. WHAT TO DO??!)

                              The flat loop serpentine in the canter (AHA!), however, took him about two repetitions to figure out and lo and behold he holds his counter canter now.

                              Well, that was clearly impossible.
                              The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                              Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                              Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                              The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                              • #16
                                Well at least your trainer is honest - she doesn't know why we wait to teach lead changes,
                                And it is not just that we wait. Dressage changes are different than hunter changes. All other things being equal, we like them with jump, up and suspended. They like them seemless, fluid and smooth. So IMO there are a couple of things going here.

                                The horse is a bit weaker on one side than the other. No big deal, that is pretty normal. And you do need to work the horse for it to become stronger. I wouldn't avoid the canter but I would strike a deal with the trainer. Something like let's work on the canter but no lead changes please. Or if you are going to do lead changes, they need to be the dressage kind (which is clearly beyond the horse at the moment). Ask her to focus on really balancing the horse on its weaker side through the transition into canter, don't canter 'til the horse can't hold it anymore and try to do a really good downward transition into the trot.

                                I find that good downward transitions are really valuable for solving these kinds of issue because you are asking muscles that are slightly fatigued to do the heavy lifting. That is a great way to build strength fast. You might be surprised how fast the horse can learn to pick up and hold the lead.

                                Another thing you can do is find and area with some slope and lunge the horse there. You get a variation of balance exercises automatically that way. One side of the circle is uphill, one side is downhill and the horse will have adjust itself accordingly. But go slow with this - some horses can get a little nervous until they learn they can shift their balance easily.
                                See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  when he gets it swaps back to the wrong lead.
                                  There is no benefit to having a hunter swap from the correct lead to the incorrect lead. FWIW, my OTTB was taught changes by the first reseller, a more HJ trainer (its nearly impossibleto sell a HJ without changes). When my old trainer, eventer, more dressage oriented got on her, there were some issues with swapping, it took a few rides to work out. Now back to HJ and we have her where she will swap if you ask, but I imagine holding a counter canter would be doable. Her aids are step over step over, new bend change. She will step over and not change if you skip the new bend. She does anticipate a bit. I suppose it depends on the horse what a barrier to training it might end up being.

                                  If it were my horse, I'd prefer to see her canter a few steps on the correct lead and come back to trot before swapping to the wrong lead vs practicing incorrect.

                                  You are the customer. It's within your rights to say- hey, don't let her swap off to the wrong lead- I prefer she just learn right means right lead, left means left lead.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Calhoun View Post
                                    For those of you who have backed and trained youngsters.

                                    I have a young horse with an excellent temperament who was backed 2 months ago and is ridden 3X a week. He has been a dream so far, very easy, the trainer has even walked him around the fields alone (no companion horse) and he handles it w/ no problem.

                                    Although my discipline is dressage, the trainer I picked is H/J with excellent references. She has started to canter the horse and he often misses the right lead and when he gets it swaps back to the wrong lead. I made the comment to her this week we should slow down on the cantering and go back to walk/trot/halt,etc. and if he offers canter she can just go with it. This gal rolls her eyes and makes a comment that we should be doing exercises to strengthen his weak side so he can pick up the correct lead. Then I get a little backhanded joke . . . I've never understood why dressage riders wait so long to teach lead changes.

                                    Just to make it clear, I really like this gal and realize we have a small clash of the riding cultures and all the work she has done so far is quite good. There is something in the back of my mind that is telling me to slow it down a notch due to this horse's willing/kind temperament, I don't want him pushed.

                                    BTW, this is my third youngster, but have never had one so easy, easy. This is my first time working w/ this trainer.

                                    look here http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=178116
                                    read all of page one and all links its all relevent
                                    ooh and if you want tod o a bt of everything then go to a trianer that mixed events like an event trainer look on fei web pages for listed accredited trianers that can help you give the correct training for your horse dont take it for red that any trianer or a person saying they are trianers unless then proven by knowledge and have backing by expreinces

                                    all clubs and associations like 4-h or usa pony club dressage or any society or associted member listed with the fei will have alisted acrredtied trianers page
                                    What has been your experience with canter and the young horse?
                                    hes unbalanced that why hes misses the lead so you got to go back to basics dont matter if hes a jumper show horse dressage or driven basic flat work is the foundation of all work done
                                    so my advice is hes four a and a pup- so go back to getting him balanced

                                    look here at my helpful links pages ooh and if your trianr doesnt know how to do the half halt stride which is used in all displines then changethe trianer as she not going to benifit you or your horse --
                                    you wnat the horse forwards straight and balanced using the half ghlats stride and lengthenign and shortening his paces using all the wlak strides as in free walk medium walk and extended all the tro paces then all the canter paces and counter canter

                                    then you can move up to doing things a bit more advance as hes learns ie si- ly,flying changes etc
                                    when the horse is more balanced and can except the work given

                                    matey you know the old saying dont run before you can walk --- go back to basics the horse only learns from you and if those that hes learning from dont know and he doesnt know then how do you expect him to understand what your asking of him

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      oooooh, my post is unclear, sorry. This gal is not trying to introduce flying changes. I just think the cantering issue is coming on too quickly and his training should be slowed down by 30 days . . . let him get comfortable with having a rider. With his easy going personality I'm afraid he might be pushed.

                                      Thank you, all of you have given me something to think about. BTW, I have always used H/J trained individuals to break my horses. I find they are not caught up in getting everything perfect, they just roll with it. At least this is the case in my area and my price range for training.
                                      "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" Richard Bach

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Kindergarten is the same whether one is going to be an engineer or an artist or an English teacher.

                                        By that, I mean that what happens in the very very early stages of under saddle work, while it lays the foundation, should not be a big deal for the work which happens as a horse begins to specialize.

                                        I want steering, forward, and safe from my baby babies. :-) There are a lot of ways to get to that point--the ones I did at home myself I took it slow; my explosive filly who went to an excellent cowboy was out on trail at walk, trot, and canter and belly deep in ponds by the time she was a week under saddle. I expect she will be a smashing dressage horse, BTW, in that phase of her eventing and dressage career.
                                        Eileen
                                        http://themaresnest.us

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