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Salinero and the Police

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  • #41
    I think its for the very reason that slc pointed out. People think it's "stupid cowboy tricks" to teach your horse how to stop when it bolts and runs away. Instead they want to focus on piaffe, passage, and piourettes and leave the stupid cowboy tricks to the tobacco spitting people wearing straw hats.

    That isn't what i said at all. AT ALL AT ALL AT ALL. when, two simple, are you going to stop changing what you read to fit your reality? i NEVER said any of that.

    WHAT I SAID was that i was glad that she didn't yank the snot out of the horse and set him down like i've seen some cowboys do - i'm sure if she did that instead of going down to the police horse end of the ring, you all would have had PLENTY to say about that too!

    frankly, after listening to you gossipy women for so many months, i'm not too sure there is ANYTHING that Anky van Grunsven could do that you WOULDN'T bitch about. you bitch about her having kids, if she didn't, you'd bitch that she wasn't having any kids. if the horse stood still, you'd say he was 'robotlike' and 'had all his will taken away from him by rollkur'. if he ran off, you'd say she stopped him too roughly. if he stopped, it would be because he was too tired after rollkur to respond to his own instincts. if he DIDN'T stop, it would be because she rides like shit. there basically, isn't any end to the crap.

    Yes, and don't forget that when I said here that our lesson horses at one barn were 'chain trained' the old way to not run away (rider jumps off, horse is jerked to a stop immediately with longe line with chain), there was a huge loud hue and cry here about THAT too! oh that's CRUEL! you guys can't have it both ways - except in your own alternate reality.

    and in fact, while 'chain training' made the horses safer, it didn't make a single one of them never run off or never dump a rider. despite that, on any cold day, we were likely to have horses and riders flying around like tiddlywinks. what it did was to try and HELP safety.

    i would defy ANY of you - ANY - to ride in that environment and never have your horse scoot off due to being startled, take Salinero, take Briar, hell, take any of balkenhols - shit, take your off the track thoroughbred or your quarter horse or even your old school horse or your arab or any of your perfect little horses, they'd be shaking in their shoes in one of those big rings under the lights with stadium and all. i'd like to see ANY of you control your horse half as well in all that buzz. and the first place they're going is to their herd - the police horses, standing still, are the safe herd. by the out gate. that's why they're there. and no it is as safe as it can get - the police horses are trained to do that and that is their job. that's why they are there. frankly, there isn't a race, event or a kiddie's saddle club show that doesn't need that police horse zone.


    • #42
      Post #41: "but one question - why do such high calibre horses need bumper cars? i know i'm only a lowly foxhunter - but runaways are NEVER tolerated in the hunt field - and neither is using other horses as bumper cars. and when i evented this was NOT done either. "

      I don't know. I'm thinking of other professional riders:

      Edgar Prado on Barbaro: saved the horses life by stopping in two strides at a full out racing gallop without much in the way of a bit and even less at practicing halt transitions. FUTURE CAREER OPPORTUNITIES if sat there instead and yelled "stop, stop": hey, sure, trainers and owners would just line up. Translation, he'd never see another ride on any track even in the bush league.

      Jockey on Charismatic: saved the horses life by stopping in two strides at a full out racing stride, valuable horse saved and able to start a stallion career. FUTURE CAREER OPPORTUNITIES if sat there instead and yelled "stop, stop": hey, sure, Belmont and all top owners of multi-million dollar horses loves riders like that.

      Julie Krone, women jockey, if ever sat there instead and yelled "stop, stop": would have set women rider's back one hundred years. Julie's FUTURE CAREER OPPORTUNITIES: none.

      Anky's FUTURE CAREER OPPORTUNITIES: oh sure, that Sal is sooo hot and uncontrollable, my god, and that bad-boy wild canter on him. So, when can Anky ride again?

      And after viewing Sal's photo, I don't understand yelling at the top of your lungs either, doesn't that always tend to make horsie wanna go?

      I'm just glad the police horses were all okay, I read that on order of the commander all horses turned their rumps towards Sal and formed a line at the exit. A horse could get a broken pelvis/hip that way, I'm glad all horses were okay.

      I'm thinking what would have happened had Prado been on Sal: Prado would have looked around and said, hey Sallie, you call that moving? You better stop fooling around before you hurt yourself. No doubt any self respecting jockey would have had that horse stopped on a dime, and the jockey would have called the spot. Notice the bit they're used to (not unlike a hunter or eventer) and the leg aides they have to work with.

      So I'm with the above J Swan post 41 quote -- I don't know. Lots of training goes into police horses, I hope they were all okay.


      • #43
        stopping a horse in a race when its leg is broken is a little different from that situation.

        i think you need to get up on that horse and find out how much better you are than anky at handling it. i will personally finance your trip to europe and boost you up into the saddle myself, right before the award ceremony. and you just have at it and prove to all of them how really ignorant and incompetent they really are.

        i'll also pay for your funeral, and headstone, with an inscription of your choice.


        • #44
          Thankyou Two Simple

          Originally posted by Two Simple
          I personally don't give two flying rat's asses WHO was on board that horse. I wouldn't care if it was a jumper, a reining rider, a western pleasure rider, or a dressage rider. What she did was completely unacceptable by all stretches of the imagination.

          Stopping a run away horse is NEVER a bad idea. Run away horses are DANGEROUS beyond belief. Their adrenaline surges, their flight instict takes over, and they will run over and through obstacles out of sheer panic if the problem isn't stopped before it escalates to such.

          And slamming your horse into another horse is NOT an acceptable way of stopping. Never. Even a police horse. Salinero's hoof could have broken a cannon bone on one of the police horses. The riders could have been jolted from the saddle and trampled to death. Spectators could have been trampled.

          She had an obligation to stop that horse in the ring before he collided with somebody, and she didn't even try, as far as I can tell. I see a photo of her in a wide mouth scream with slack reins. How in the hell is that doing ANYHTING to stop the horse? Screaming is the #1 ultimate NO NO to do when a horse is panicked. You do not scream, as it only escalates the situation. Anky's sreaming shows that she is truly terrified of the animal, and she obviously has no business riding it until she learns how to deal with the hot nature of the animal.

          And yes, slc, my horse has SCOOTED OFF as you put it, with me on board. And scooted off nothing - try full out gallop after a bolt. But I sure as heck don't sit there like a dim wit and scream at the top of my lunges. I engage a one rein stop, circle the horse until it stops. An olympic sized arena is plenty enough room to circle the horse.
          for that! I did not say near that much yesterday and was read the riot act by slc!
          I just loked at the picture, it looks like no effort on her part to stop the animal! Yelling Help??? That is really surprising!


          • #45
            thank you Two Simple.

            I already stopped a couple horses in the open field at a full out gallop, not unlike what J Swan was alluding to.

            And yes, slc2, the racehorse would have eventually stopped or more precisely fallen. But the key was how QUICKLY the jockey is able to stop the stride and keep weight off the injured leg. They are able to stop IMMEDIATELY stopping further damage. When every next stride is a death sentence, I thank all jockeys for just not sitting there yelling "stop stop."

            EDITED TO ADD: On second thought, I'm in no position to thank jockeys, it could sound condescending. I honor them and their skills.


            • #46
              this is getting even better; you're all convincing eachother now!

              alright, let's get that trainer over there, then, if you're too cowardly to do it. i'll pay. let's just see how terribly right you are. i'd LOVE to see some cowboy try to stop something that weighs double what his reiners do, and double what a race horse does and on as much feed, and fit to work 45 min instead of 2, trained to balance like that, and not an awkward two or three year old but a seasoned horse with years of fitness behind it, how they stop them with their little one rein stop.

              my GOD if any of you get better at judging other people, we'll have to start a new tv show for you.

              only one problem. none of the other riders would allow it to happen, because you would be putting everyone else in the ring in danger, too.


              • #47
                slc...it's not about how much the horse weighs...it's about leverage and dymanics. A warmblood is no more formidable than a runaway TB or a barrel racing horse out of control. I also could care less if it was Anky or RK on that horse and I am not being critical because she does rollkur. I do think anyone who knows a one rein stop or who was accustomed to handling rank runaways could have put him under control without running into another horse. Quite a few of us have experience galloping horses and we've had our share of runaways to stop in the past so we are speaking from our own experience and not just some nice theory we read about.


                • #48
                  from slc2, post 52: "let's just see how terribly right you are."

                  For a look at the race horses, just go to the video tape. Here's another way to stop a horse that Two Simple didn't mention yet, and it's not very complicated:

                  - watch the shoulder, like when you post and see the shoulder go forward and back.

                  - pick a shoulder, whichever side you want.

                  - when the shoulder is moving forward, the leg is in mid air. Wait til the leg is in mid air.

                  - from a loose rein (Anky did get that part right) take all your weight (or as much as you need, I did have a rubber bit in horsie's mouth last time I did this) on that side and pull abruptly back. Keep it there a while, do not release right away. The horse must break his stride, horse cannot complete stride.

                  - horse's stride has been broken. Now you can circle horsie or come to a dead halt, whichever you are better with.

                  And yes, you can use your leg aides to help. And yes, be careful if your bit is harsh or with curb and apply the initial abrupt pull-back pressure accordingly.


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                    alright, let's get that trainer over there, then, if you're too cowardly to do it. i'll pay. let's just see how terribly right you are.

                    i'd LOVE to see some cowboy try to stop something that weighs double what his reiners do,
                    Not all "cowboy horses" are reiners. Some of 'em are big enough to drag a 1,000# steer out of a bog....
                    and double what a race horse does and on as much feed,
                    But can only run one-fourth as fast...

                    and fit to work 45 min instead of 2,
                    Most working cowboy horses are expected to be able to go all day, never mind 45 piddly minutes...

                    trained to balance like that, how they stop them with their little one rein stop.
                    Oh, he'd stop the horse alright. A person gets a whole more practical with their horse handling when they are out on the open range actually WORKING with a horse than they do just prancing around in competition in pursuit of accolades.


                    • #50

                      Originally posted by Ellie K View Post
                      I loved it the last time someone "innocently" started a thread about this same incident, and that OP claimed to be very opposed to rollkur yet did not know who Anky is , then oh-so-passive-aggressively thanked her lucky stars that she knows how to stop a runaway no problem..whilst laughing hysterically of course. Come to think of it then that same OP posted in a Chris Reeve thread that whilst his accident was certainly a fluke, she was oh-so-glad that she knows how to fall off!!! Priceless.
                      EllieK, if you have a problem with me, you can contact me directly.

                      I do not agree with the CONCEPT of rollkur. So, if I disagree with rollkur, based on the information I have at this time, that some how makes me hate Anky? I'd never seen ANky ride until they showed highlights of the WEG, and honestly never understood all this shit surrounding her. If you want to jump on someone's bandwagon and follow them blindly, go for it. That's your mindless choice. I, on the other hand, prefer to continue learning new methods, but only try them once I have researched them. Anky didn't invent rollkur. It's been around for ages, and I am still researching the benefits to this training.
                      As for runaways, yes, I've had my share. When I had my first runaway, it freaked me out. After that, meh. Now, I don't know Salinero, or the conditions regarding Anky's situation---they never showed this on tv. My post was in regards to a PHOTOGRAPH(people here REALLY need to READ posts) in an INTERNATIONAL MAGAZINE. If Anky had been hurt, I doubt they would have printed it. Also, she is pregnant. So what? Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Riding pregnant is a choice. She chose to do ALL of this with a horse that, as it turns out, had done this a few times before. Hello?? If I KNEW my horse could get strong/uncontrolable, and I KNEW I was pregnant, I wouldn't be doing a victory gallop. I thought this was a first time situation until someone else mentioned it had happened before. Hmmm.
                      As for falling, yes, I know how to fall. Meaning, if and when I fall, I just relax and am lucky my body is short enough that I don't land the way a 6'4 rider would.

                      Honestly, YOU need a life if you follow me around, reading my posts. That's sad and creepy all at once. Maybe you lot should go and ride more, and let Anky's successes be her defence. She's a top rider, has a lovely horse(I'm sure she has more, I just only saw Salinero), will soon have a lovely baby and if our sports channel was correct, she will be doing some clinics abroad. I think that says more than any of your immature, flaming defensive posts on someone none of you know.


                      • #51
                        HSSSST pffffftt wet cats in a bag!


                        • #52
                          This is the third time that this same event is leading to a long post. I think I will start it again under yet another title in a month or so. Then we can all react yet again. Wouldn't that be fun?
                          Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.


                          • #53
                            A title like

                            Originally posted by fargo View Post
                            This is the third time that this same event is leading to a long post. I think I will start it again under yet another title in a month or so. Then we can all react yet again. Wouldn't that be fun?
                            A title like :

                            Anky leaves Sjef for a German police-man !

                            and you will hit the charts.



                            • #54
                              yes, Two Simple, and guess what else? In the REAL WORLD, not every run away can and should be stopped, and I have seen wonderful trainers and experts - cowboys, dressage riders, jumper riders, saddle seat riders, who got run away with.

                              In many situations, the one rein stop can lame or throw a horse down, and such tricks are not the answer for every situation, especially in a small area where you know the horse can safely come to a stop without it. In many cases, I would FAR rather yell, help and go for the bumper cars, ESPECIALLY if i was a couple months pregnant. It all depends on the situation, for all you know the horse spurted up, and Anky just let him go, knowing it was safer to just let him run out on a straight line, but in most cases, the last thing I'd want to do is anything that would make the horse stumble or go down if i was riding an upper level horse or was pregnant.

                              And guess what? Anky was ridng these big strong horses before you were born, unless you're as old as your judging-others stick-in-the-mud posts suggest, and has broke plenty of brumbies, and won her young rider on a hot-as-spitfire Thoroughbred, and grew up riding jumpres, and guess what? I think she knows what to do in these situations. For all I know she could have cared less and just let him have some fun, And whatever she did, I think for the situation was probably fine.

                              My friend did a one rein stop and broke her leg in six places, and sure, go ahead and tell me that you know how better than her.

                              There is always the assumption that these riders just ride in the ring and do a test, and can't ride for shit if something goes wrong. I invite any of you to come to one of those barns and find out that for the most part, you're wrong - how do you think they got to where they are today? These people for the most part are able to deal with things that would make you leap off and run under your bed screaming.

                              But the thing is, you love so much being wrong, it's be hard to make a dent in it.


                              • #55
                                This is the third time that this same event is leading to a long post. I think I will start it again under yet another title in a month or so. Then we can all react yet again. Wouldn't that be fun?
                                Yeah, this same discussion has been done over and over several times on different boards , always someone is APALLED or is a Better Rider or some such nonsense. If you reply to the nonsense, you are an Anky slave.


                                Carry on.... it's terribly interesting. I want to see Too Simplistic and Slc in the mudpit. I'll pay big bucks and it can be donated to a fund to sponsor riders conceived in NA. There must be proof that the swimmers reached their goal within NA boundaries.


                                • #56
                                  Because a horse physically CANNOT run when his hindquarters are disengaged and crossing over each other. I
                                  When the hind legs of a horse cross over each other, it is physically impossible to keep running.
                                  When you exert extreme force on one rein, you can and WILL double the horse. In other words, you will do a 180 and whip the horse right around.
                                  Do you really think a rider on a competitive medal winning Olympic horse is going to do that?
                                  Two words spring to mind: Suspensory Ligaments
                                  Thing is if you're pulling up a race horse with a broken leg it's already stuffed. She wasn't.

                                  Whatever this woman does you guys jump all over her, if she'd whipped the horse round like you describe it would have been all over the press, if she pulled it up with one rein it would have been all over the press. She can't do right for doing wrong why don't you get off her case now and find some new focus for your hate.


                                  • #57
                                    slc---why do you feel you have to defend Anky? Aren't her successes proof enough that she knows what she is doing? And maybe she made a tactical error in perhaps taking a hot horse in a victory gallop, after the animal had already displayed this behavior before. I thought it was ironic---when I saw the photo and she had just won a medal, and she couldn't stop her horse. It to me, was nice to tell my riders 'hey, all the medals in the world cant' stop a horse from being a horse'. Horses are unpredictable. However, when I found out this was his third or fourth time bolting.....um, hello? I think perhaps a better choice for a victory/awards ceremony would have been ok for her to choose, given that she was pregnant. After finding that out, I think she made a big error in taking Salinero in the ceremony. Oh well. She even joked about it, so that's that. It's done, over and I'm sure she's moved on. Why anyone else can't is beyond me.

                                    Why is it that if someone observes something, that it's bashing a rider??? When did this all get to be if you acknowledged something with Anky it means you hate her? We're not in kindergarten kids.

                                    For slc-that's nice. EllieK is a top rider...so what? Ever heard of manners and eloquence?
                                    Last edited by LE; Oct. 9, 2006, 03:01 PM. Reason: adding something


                                    • #58
                                      LE, you need to read a little more carefully. I am not defending Anky van Grunsven at all. I am criticizing a bunch of gossipy, ignorant statements. everyone hates a winner, they say, especially if she's not american and didn't ride a cowpony to victory.

                                      Also - Funny on you, LE. Ellie K. is one of the top riders in the United States, has been doing the FEI for quite a long time, and started and trained one of the best young horses that went to the FEI young horse tests, one of the top scoring american bred horses that ever competedin the yh fei at all. and if i had a choice of who i thought was more knowledgeable, you or Ellie, i think i'd pick ellie. I love the part where you tell her to ride more....

                                      she's not following you and reading your posts like a creepy stalker as you imply - you are posting on a public web site and she is disagreeing with your absurd pov. that doesn't make her a stalker.

                                      LOL. This just gets better and better. You GO girl.


                                      • #59
                                        Fiona...As for Salinero getting hurt....is his life or soundness worth the life of any human being like those mounted police officers or someone on the ground who might have gotten trampled? I don't think so and I'd hate to think anyone here would think so. Wrecks like that can be fatal for both people and horses.

                                        Actually I would have been very impressed if she had stopped him in his tracks and set him on his ass instead of letting him run over two police horses.


                                        • #60
                                          "Do you really think a rider on a competitive medal winning Olympic horse is going to do that? "

                                          All you have to do is as described in post 54: block the horse's stride. It's not brain surgery on the dynamics, and there's no need to cry "injury" to an Olympic level horse.

                                          I'm equally sure jockeys can stop a non-injured horse,however there was enough strides left in both examples I gave -- their quick thinking in not letting anymore impact from strides going on the injured legs did save both horse's lives. Thank god those horses both had capable riders. And the power and implusion in those racing strides, even with injury -- was so much more than anything my buddy Sal was putting out.