• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Sjef Janssen talks about the (near) future of dressage in Holland/Germany/USA and ...

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sjef Janssen talks about the (near) future of dressage in Holland/Germany/USA and ...

    Sjef Janssen talks about the (near) future of dressage in Holland/Germany/USA and the Isabell Werth case :


    http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/vie....php?f=32&t=14

    [edit]
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Aug. 2, 2009, 06:55 AM.

  • #2
    Sjef always looks like he's had a terrible night!! :-) However, his recommendation for the US dressage team is spot on... "get the good horses to the right people!" I'm just afraid that this will not happen in my life time....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

    Comment


    • #3
      Interesting . Thanks for posting it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
        Sjef always looks like he's had a terrible night!! :-) However, his recommendation for the US dressage team is spot on... "get the good horses to the right people!" I'm just afraid that this will not happen in my life time....
        That doesn't seem to be rocket science, though. Yeah, if the best horse in the country is with the worst rider, of course it won't be at the Olympics!

        and don't forget "start working really really hard." "get a good coach."

        Maybe people need the obvious, but it still seems just obvious to me.

        Comment


        • #5
          Agreed, Aijerene.

          It is pretty simple advice to a complex situation. However, I will go out on a limb and say that that I'm not personally concerned that America gets a gold medal in dressage in the near future. So what that Holland has a deep and wide dressage field at the moment. So what that Germany doesn't. It isn't static - horses and riders change constantly over time. Dressage isn't America's equine heritage.

          It costs a bloody fortune to match the best dressage horses with the best riders and then campaign them at the top levels. Too much, these days. Breeders don't donate horses to the top riders - they usually charge a fortune for top prospects. Trainers vie to take a hefty commission. Top horses are owned by very wealthy people or syndicates. Top riders don't come down much on their skyhigh fees to take on younger horses with potential and are often primarily supported by wealthy sponsors and secondarily by wealthy clinic riders. International-bound young riders havesomeone with uber-deep pockets (parents or other connections) to support their elite habit. It all comes down to raising and spending LOTS of money to be successful and to interpersonal politics of elite dressage. Too much. The sport of dressage brings this upon itsself. I can think of better ways to spend a million or so dollars.

          In short, Sjef's comments are right, but not very illuminating. And I'm fine with his statements.
          Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
            Top riders don't come down much on their skyhigh fees to take on younger horses with potential and are often primarily supported by wealthy sponsors and secondarily by wealthy clinic riders.
            This is a big problem. I have one horse now that is really amazing, maybe one of the best I have ever owned. I actually have had some GP riders contact me asking if they can have the ride on her in a couple of years. But, a number of really good people, including some of the ones who I believe would be the *right* match for her, charge over 3K per month for boarding and training - and that is before they step foot on any van to any show. I have a farm and 7 horses, so it is really not realistic for me to be spending what would end up 4K or 5K per month just to keep *one* training and showing. So either one of these will be a bit more entrepeneurial (with me or other breeders with top youngsters) or they will continue riding second rate horses for people with more money than brains, in some cases.

            Regarding breeders charging top dollar for their best mounts, they aren't left much choice, because theoretically their pricing should be commensurate with the quality, so it is the few stars that have to make up for all the others that went for slim or no profit (or losses, in many instances). That said, most I know will work with people to make the right match possible.
            Roseknoll Sporthorses
            www.roseknoll.net

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
              Sjef always looks like he's had a terrible night!! :-) However, his recommendation for the US dressage team is spot on... "get the good horses to the right people!" I'm just afraid that this will not happen in my life time....

              It's a case of 'DUH'

              However, since this is all a matter of private treaty, not much one can do about it. No telling how many really top horses are in somebody's back yard. because they were just lucky to come across them. Unlike Throroughbreds and Standard Breds, WBs' primary function is as riding horse, not necessarily as show horse.

              And as for the top riders wanting a special horse under the saddle...they better pony up the money...or bring a sponsor....
              Originally posted by BigMama1
              Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
              GNU Terry Prachett

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                This is a big problem. I have one horse now that is really amazing, maybe one of the best I have ever owned. I actually have had some GP riders contact me asking if they can have the ride on her in a couple of years. But, a number of really good people, including some of the ones who I believe would be the *right* match for her, charge over 3K per month for boarding and training - and that is before they step foot on any van to any show. I have a farm and 7 horses, so it is really not realistic for me to be spending what would end up 4K or 5K per month just to keep *one* training and showing. So either one of these will be a bit more entrepeneurial (with me or other breeders with top youngsters) or they will continue riding second rate horses for people with more money than brains, in some cases.

                Regarding breeders charging top dollar for their best mounts, they aren't left much choice, because theoretically their pricing should be commensurate with the quality, so it is the few stars that have to make up for all the others that went for slim or no profit (or losses, in many instances). That said, most I know will work with people to make the right match possible.
                Wow that is CRAZY prices. When I inquired with BNT's I was quoted 1000-1400 per month for full board and training. We pay about 1270 USD per month for a top up and coming trainer (master bereiter, worked for Hannoverian's, has scores in low-mid 70s at GP etc) in Germany for full board and training. But I have heard other people quote crazy prices as well..


                I am wondering if they are 'I don't really want to ride your horses' price quotes? Or if there are people out there stupid enough to pay it, so they charge it!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sixbar View Post
                  Wow that is CRAZY prices. When I inquired with BNT's I was quoted 1000-1400 per month for full board and training. We pay about 1270 USD per month for a top up and coming trainer (master bereiter, worked for Hannoverian's, has scores in low-mid 70s at GP etc) in Germany for full board and training. But I have heard other people quote crazy prices as well..


                  I am wondering if they are 'I don't really want to ride your horses' price quotes? Or if there are people out there stupid enough to pay it, so they charge it!
                  Well, there are BNTs and there are BNTs. A BNT is not a "top up and coming trainer." (that would be a BNUCT ; )). Do you want a team member to ride your horse? They charge $$$$$. By the way, those prices were not quoted to me, but to several of my friends who have phenomenal horses. My personal experience regarding the one horse I mentioned has been that certain GP riders have contacted me and were willing to work something out. It happens that I don't think they would be a good match for me or my horses. And I will inquire with the "right" people next year, when it is relevant, but based on what I am hearing from reliable sources, I am not expecting them to be very flexible. Perhaps the economy will have changed people's attitudes.

                  Also, I am not talking about young horse starters, I was referring to people who can take your horse say from small tour to GP and be internationally competitive. The top (imo) young horse starter charges $1700 a month, and I can name many who charge about $1200 a month and who, despite their "good" reputations, really do not do a very good job.
                  Roseknoll Sporthorses
                  www.roseknoll.net

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The problem is not people's willingness to get top horses in the hands of the right professionals, it is what the top professionals want to charge the owners that is the impediment tp making it happen more often than it does.

                    The solution would be a "training fund" that subsidizes the professionals on the short list so that owners could adsorb the capital cost of the horses they own, fine, but then not have the running costs to keep the horse in training.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sure the German price I quoted is not BNT but I did not say he was, but the US prices I quoted was from two people who have represented the USA at WEG and or the Olympics, some more than once and are definately considered BNT (in America anyway). I think essentially though the problem is supply and demand. As I said if there are more than enough people willing to pay the 3k+ per month, then sure why wouldn't they charge it? Unfortunately it is an elitist sport. When you look at it there are actually not that many people out there who do a great job. So the ones that do are in high demand and can pick and choose what horses they take and how much they charge.

                      And no I am not saying its right.. But you can go with the BNT and pay his/her fee's or you can look for a talented up and comer, that can do as good a job. I think there are hungry talented people out there looking for an opportunity..

                      I do know some of the Gold medal European's can charge upwards of 40,000 Euro a year for training.. I have also had a friend train with a BNT in the USA (WEG AND OLYMPIAN) and she paid about 20K a year for full board and training (she had a super talented horse though). It seems interesting that price quotes seem to be all over the shop. I really don't care who they are I don't think anyone is worth 3K a month for one horse. That is more than a lot of people's monthly wages who work 8+ hours a day. It sure does not take 8 hours a day to train and look after one horse..

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It takes two...

                        On many levels, I start to wonder if it's more about developing good riders than it is good horses.

                        I see a lot of good horses out and about these days. What I don't see is a lot of riders with the training/experience they need to move forward. I see several folks right on the edge of being internationally competitive but not quite there. I know the USEF tried to address this by asking the long listed riders what they needed. They had a meeting in Chicago last fall as well as meetings in FL and CA this spring. Unfortunately, a clear initiative with clear goals doesn't seem to have come together. I'm wondering if they're a little reluctant to get anything really going until they get a coach?

                        Things I don't understand: there was a grant fund for $35K for 6 riders to compete in europe this summer, ending at Aachen-many of the riders who qualified for the grant weren't interested in going. So the USEF says we're not doing it (or something to that effect, I'm sorry I don't remember the exact details) Then Jane Hannigan (I love her!) says something like 'wait a minute, I followed the rules and now you're not giving out the money bec. the others don't want to go? I don't think so.' So they eventually 'allowed' Jane to go. Unfortunately in the interim, Maks was hurt so it ended up being for naught.

                        Regardless, the US riders that did qualify weren't willing to go and the ones that were 'right on the edge' didn't qualify to go. How do we get more riders a chance to run with the big dogs and learn the ins and outs of international competition? The USEF understandably doesn't want to pay the large sums to send riders to Europe that aren't ready but you don't really know what you're doing until you get in the sandbox a few times..

                        (btw, Jane had to pay her own way to represent the US at the World Cup, what's up with that?)

                        The big problem may be our own special American spirit: each one wants to do it 'my way.' Many of the riders want to stick with their own coach du jour instead of a national coach. You would have thought that Klaus B. was satan incarnate the way some of the riders talked about him....everything from how he had ruined their horse to he didn't know what he was doing or wouldn't give them the time of day unless they were debbie/guenter/steffen.

                        I can't help but wonder if there's any person that can herd our group of independent cats into a cohesive program that will give us a broad base of internationally competitive riders?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ok so this is hijaking the thread, and maybe needs to become its own thread? But lets break down costs and see if we can come up with what is considered a fair price.

                          Trainers costs:

                          Mortgage ??
                          Car/truck payments
                          Wage?? 50K a year 100K a year??
                          Staff? Some European barns I know have 6-8 staff (most paid)
                          Feed (not ancillary's as they are usually charged above)

                          Now we look at it from an owner's point of view.

                          Cost of training horse from three?? to Grand Prix.

                          Lets take 5K a month for BNT, ancillary's including competition costs.

                          =60K a year

                          Avergae sale price for an average Grand Prix horse 100-200K?? Some way more some less..

                          Average age of Grand Prix horse, lets say 9?

                          so from 3-9 6 years time 60K =360K for a horse worth maybe 200K?

                          Now there are other factors to be taken into account such as are they stallions? So owner get service fees. But I hear an average for a stallion is about five mares. Some way more of course. But most sport horses are gelding's so no breed value there..

                          I hear tax dodge or just have so much money and you love the sport so much..

                          And I am open to any correction of what I have said..This is just based on what has been said, and some of my own experiences in looking at GP horses for sale. As I said before I pay way less than what has been quoted here. But that doesn't seem to be the norm..

                          And you know the funny thing is, I know lot's of people who make a lot of money out of horses. Go figure..

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            60k for board, training and showing? That's a little off. Try 200,000 a year, or more.

                            Traveling to the big shows in Europe is expensive.


                            If someone can train very well, and turn a horse into an olympic horse - yes, they do get paid. Lots.

                            Taking a 'nice, really nice' horse and turning it into an Olympic horse is a very valuable commodity. One can raise the value of a horse by a factor of 10 or 20 or more. Top horses not only sell for more, they make an owner's other horses much more valuable for decades after, and put his business on the map.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              I don't think that Sjef has this information from Internet forums. I know that his information about the current situation of the USA dressage scene is coming from insiders. And NO it's not rocketscience but YES it's very true.

                              The fact is that many good riders don't have good horses, and many good horses don't have the good riders in the USA.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Who doesn't have a good horse and can ride at the Olympic level in the next 3 years?

                                I think it applies to a handful of people, not thousands.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  slc - I think it goes a little deeper than that...... One Olympic quality horse is not enough. You take somebody like Courtney King or Michelle Gibson who have been there and done it, and then look at the horses they currently ride. Not enough horses of the quality required and no depth, i. e. horses of different ages. Look at talented young riders like Liz Austin and Olivier - she should have four or five very talented horses in her barn.

                                  And the list goes on and on....
                                  Siegi Belz
                                  www.stalleuropa.com
                                  2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                                  Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    And NO it's not rocketscience but YES it's very true.
                                    Yeah, and what else could he say? There's no magical answer to it. Are people looking for magical answers? Everyone knows what is needed. The right horses, the right riders, the right horses WITH the right riders, top coaching, committed sponsors, international shows, money, money and more money etcetcetc.. and importantly, the thing that Tineke B was bragging about recently, a system and plan to develop the next generationS and build for the future. It's a tall order.

                                    I found it interesting to hear the enigma that is Sjef speak. It's interesting as well that he is supporting his biggest rival. Could it be he is a true sportsman despite what others think?

                                    (duck and cover)

                                    Although I will say he does look like he has a permanent hangover.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      agree on all points siegi

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by freestyle2music
                                        The fact is that many good riders don't have good horses, and many good horses don't have the good riders in the USA.
                                        Theo, What is being said is that this may be a fact, it is not the core issue as to the problem of why USA does not have the #1 dressage team.

                                        Plantagenet brought up something interesting: Why weren't any USA riders interested in taking the grant and competing in Europe?


                                        Originally posted by Plantagenet View Post
                                        On many levels, I start to wonder if it's more about developing good riders than it is good horses.

                                        Things I don't understand: there was a grant fund for $35K for 6 riders to compete in europe this summer, ending at Aachen-many of the riders who qualified for the grant weren't interested in going.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X