• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Why can't my horse do grand prix?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    short answer:because it's really hard.

    not as short answer:because it's different with every horse and sometimes different depending on the day and still hard

    btw, agree w/ the rider being impt. friend who trained at rehbein's was sure he could make a mule piaffe.

    Comment


    • #22
      I think the horse's mind is more important (excluding the rider) than anything else. I've seen downhill QH's learn FEI movements...they may not do them well, but like Ideayoda said, they do them in a fashion. I've seen the most physcially talented horses in the world have such silly minds and poor work ethics that they couldn't do good training level work.

      Comment


      • #23
        I think most horses could works its way to GP. I don't mean to disrespect or demean the "competitive" aspect of dressage and those great horses-- BUT the whole concept of dressage was to take a "regular" horse and make them great through discipline and training.

        Gait abnormalities and unsoundness (mental or physical) are the only things I can think of that would cause a horse to be completely unable to comply with what is being asked. I once knew a woman who had this 7 year old mare that couldn't even get around the arena without her nose being in the air, and this paticular mare wasn't a stellar mover, and didn't possess superior conformation. This lady was determined and worked slowly and 13 years later wouldn't you know this little mare was doing piaffe/passage, tempis, etc. The mare I might add did not break down mentally or physically from those demands.

        She wasn't competitive, it took forever to get there... but the point is, she DID get there.

        Comment


        • #24
          podhajsky and others said that not one in 10,000 horses can do the grand prix. then dressage came to america, LOL, and that was no longer acceptable.

          alot of horses do a type of 'housewife FEI'(not my term, don't blame me), where they do the work, they get around the ring, sure, but without enough, real or correct collection, mostly in working gaits. or at least in what to a demanding trainer with standards, is 'working gaits'.

          this kind of thing confuses observers who don't realize what is going on.

          Comment


          • #25
            The average horse, with decent conformation, and most importantly - 3 clean, pure gaits, should be able to make it to I1, and be moderately competitive. (scores in the low 60%)

            Those horses will most likely be able to do 2 of the 3 "hard" GP movements.

            there is a huge canyon between I1 and I2.

            Comment


            • #26
              Why can't my average horse jump Grand Prix fences? It's a similar question with a similar answer. Extra-ordinary athletic talent is the answer.

              I read many posts from riders wanting to make it to GP when they aren't even at First Level. Once you reach 3rd or 4th level, you begin to have a better understanding of why horses don't get farther. Collection and suppleness at this level is extremely difficult. Along with this you need power and brilliance, something I feel is missing in many of the horses that have the talent for the P's (odg's baroque, etc.).

              Comment


              • #27
                that involves keeping them sound for a long time. that, for most people who get to the point where they can ride well enough to move a horse up, is the problem.

                the FIRST thing that stops people from succeeding is their riding. the NEXT thing that stops them from moving up is the horse. no one seems to recognize that. it's not all the horse, and it's not all the rider. if a person can't sit the trot, can't do the basic things, can't ride forward, they aren't going to move up the levels. sure. but if they get past that, that's not the end of the story.

                and i don't see - well - MOST of the horses people select for themselves, staying sound for the ten years or more it might take. that means that any little slight defect in their conformation, any tendency of them to be 'hard' on themselves (say, if they have a heavy front end or a long, heavy neck, or a slight hind quarter, or any defect in their leg conformation, or well...just about anything else) that that is going to get put to the test.

                upper level horses have to be fit, and that means working, and that means testing their conformation. it has nothing to do with what traits most people look for in a horse, those are just cosmetic things and aren't important.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Not all horses can make it to GP. Nor can they all get to second. We have a cute little perch/tb cross at our barn who has been ridden by a very good rider all summer. He qualified for regionals at first, with a respectable 68%. He will never make it to second. Oh, he can do "housewife" second as SLC mentioned above. He can go sideways, do renvers, travers, half pass, BUT NOT IN A COLLECTED BALANCE. He did go in the ring at second, nice accurate test, but no collection, score 55%. He is not built to sit nor elevate his forehand and he will not be able to. He is what he is, and many horses are like this.

                  Now, yes, I agree that the rider makes a huge difference. But do you know how hard it is to ride upper level movements in a test? I am trying to ride 4/PSG now. I can do a beautiful trot or canter half pass, from point Z (somewhere between the quarter line and the wall) to point Q (somewhere in the middle) but to try to put it all together into a zig zag, or from there to the pirouettes (and we can do a good one in the middle of the ring after doing about 6 schooling ones) is extremely difficult. Try it sometime. So combine very hard movements, put them in a very rapid sequence and see how many horses can get to GP

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I think it's all rider related too. Obviously some horses will perform the movements better than others but once riders figure out how to ask for the movement then there is no reason why the horse shouldn't be able to do it, even if they do it poorly!
                    I think it's the learning curve hump thing. Once you get over the hump of not knowing how to do something and just figure it out then all of a sudden it seems achievable. I have a friend who one day last winter decided that she would learn to do canter pirouettes and the next week she was doing half canter pirouettes.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      All toptrainers and riders will

                      All toptrainers and riders will tell you that between PSG/Inter-I and the GP/GPS you have the Alps, Grand Canyon and the Himalaya.

                      Why do you think the PaPi-class was introduced for riders coming from the YR-classes. The step from the Light Tour to the Heavy tour is much to BIG. And starting to practice Passage and Piaffe while you are still competing at the PSG/Inter-I isn't a very wise descission, so to make a succesfull switch between the Light and Heavy Tour you have to stay home for one or two years, which is for many riders a BIG problem.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Why so few horses make it to Grand Prix

                        redux:

                        conformation
                        temperament
                        talent
                        time
                        training
                        soundness
                        rider ability
                        rider dedication


                        when all these factors come together, you win the lottery.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Sounds like those dang GP riders are doing it again, making it look so darn easy that every joe schmoe thinks they should be able to do it too.

                          Thinking most horses can do it is silly. Some people don't seem to be seperating movements from full tests. Or that it's a joint effort which takes talent on both sides, horses/rider. I agree with those that point this out.

                          I have a horse that can do many GP movements. He's built that way and has shown me he is capable of many movements that are considered quite hard. But darn it if I can get him to do a decent down transition or take the proper canter lead some days, especially at shows. It's his mind that causes most of our issues and when it's not him it's me (we both have off days). Putting all those movements together is amazingly hard.

                          I should say, I don't think people should be discouraged by this, knowing that it's hard or nearly impossible for most horse/rider combos. It should push us to do the best with what we have and take pride in that (so much easier said than done

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            The average horse who remains decently sound (ie no injuries, or bad arthritis) SHOULD with proper training and TIME/Conditioning be able to SCHOOL all the GP movements.

                            But schooling the movements- and putting together a test is a whole different shebang. you can take a QH and train it and spend time working and developing it and several years down the road that QH if luck has blessed it will be sound and playing some piaffe, passage, and pirrouettes and tempis. But that doesn't mean he can do it in a test (Or that by this point the rider hasn't stopped to have a kid, changed jobs, moved across country, sold horse yadda yadda yadda). Soem horses will neve rbe built to do this correctly- but they CAN do it if they ad developed properly and have a good rider on them. NOw putting the test together, doing it correctly (like i'm sorry a 8 inch downhill horse will not be as CORRECT in it's movement, gaits or collection) is another shebang. BUt ANY horse should if stays sound be able to train up to the point of WORKING those movements.
                            Qualified Saddle Fitter with the S.M.S.
                            www.ravenwoodaussies.com

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              But let's talk about

                              But let's talk about real GP, not the ones we have seen at the WEG2006 from tooooooo many people. For me it wasn't fun to watch 83 rides from which only 30 imo could be addressed at a GP-ride. The rest was doing a PSG test and try to survive the PAPI.

                              And I agree with the earlier posters that every horse can do (more or less) the heavy tour movements, but mostly when they want it to do themself and on the spot they choose themself. The hardest part is to glue all these movements together, and believe me in the GP there is NOT much time for preparing for the next movement. And last but not least it takes two horses to become a good GP-rider.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Horsedances View Post
                                But let's talk about real GP, not the ones we have seen at the WEG2006 from tooooooo many people. For me it wasn't fun to watch 83 rides from which only 30 imo could be addressed at a GP-ride. The rest was doing a PSG test and try to survive the PAPI.

                                And I agree with the earlier posters that every horse can do (more or less) the heavy tour movements, but mostly when they want it to do themself and on the spot they choose themself. The hardest part is to glue all these movements together, and believe me in the GP there is NOT much time for preparing for the next movement. And last but not least it takes two horses to become a good GP-rider.

                                Exactly right Theo

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  So is the horse only considered Grand Prix if you can actually pull a test together? But could most horses with three good, correct gaits and conformation learn to do the movements then? I don't think the OP was even implying that it might be easy to get to GP or wondering if she would be able to take him there but just in general, why couldn't her horse learn GP with whoever (insert name of your favorite GP trainer). I understand her question and it is somehing I have thought about.

                                  When some of you say that most horses wouldn't be able to "sit" enough for grand prix, do you mean to be competative or just period? Could most horses with a good trainer (again say your favorite GP trainer, ever) be trained to do the GP movements without perhaps not well enough to win or even score remarkabley well but to where it at least has the training? Or would that be considered the housewife GP? I am not talking about training a horse to do tricks but training a horse correctly but that perhaps might not be cabable of pulling off the incredible sit that a competative GP horse would need.

                                  After giving this more thought, I think I would agree with slc2 that the most important limitation (having to do directly with the horse) would probably be the horses soundness at that kind of level. The rider/trainer being the biggest limitation overall.

                                  Someone used the analogy of basketball. Sure none of us here could make it to the NBA but most of us could learn to play a decent basketball game!

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Jenn2674 View Post
                                    So is the horse only considered Grand Prix if you can actually pull a test together?
                                    Yes, that is my definition of a GP horse. The Tests are what determines the level of horse's training, imo. You can ride the test at home; it doesn't have to be done at a show.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      "So is the horse only considered Grand Prix if you can actually pull a test together?"

                                      Yes. Otherwise any horse that can manage a step of piaffe becomes a GP horse. A horse needs to be able to put it all together- as is required within a test- and be able to complete the movements at the very least to be considered even a schooling GP horse. That means 15 1's, 9 2's, a recognizeable pirouette, piaffe passage and the transitions between, counter changes in the canter, lock to lock half passes, the whole shebang.

                                      I don't believe every single horse born in the world can make it to this level, but I do agree that more horses would be able to do so if the riders were capable of training them. Whether that means a horse which can do the movements or a horse which can competitively do the movements to me seems moot- most people who can train to this level won't put in the time and work involved unless the horse is talented enough to be very show ring competitive.

                                      So, few folks are attempting to train the level backed camped out horse or the downhill low necked horse, and it's hard to know whether a horse such as this could manage to learn to do the GP. Horses can surprise you, just like people if they wrap their minds around something. I would not be shocked to hear that a very unusual comformed horse was able to do a credible GP test.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        So, Nuno, who never showed didnt ride GP???

                                        And interesting imput here. I once rented an old film from German embassy (in Atlanta). It showed typical (army) officiers training (dressage), outside. Lungeing/jumping/dressage/etc. It showed horse after horse doing pillars and levade. They were expect to do that (apprently). Average horses, perhaps less than that as far as their type, but with wonderful scope. It also showed all to two tempis (because there was still a debate about including ones).
                                        I.D.E.A. yoda

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Most likely a combination of many things:

                                          Physlical ability of the horse
                                          Mental ability of the horse
                                          Training of the horse
                                          Physical ability of the rider
                                          Mental ability of the rider
                                          Training of the rider

                                          And mostly

                                          Luck to match Horse and rider with all the qualities above

                                          And money to get them together and keep them together...and of course get them to show...


                                          It's a tall order...I think playing lotto has better odds!
                                          Originally posted by BigMama1
                                          Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                                          GNU Terry Prachett

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X