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Rollkur--A Picture is worth a thousand words

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  • Original Poster

    #81
    Originally posted by tradewind
    tewhann..after having read countless RK threads and never having replied to one..I just have one really short comment to make..BLECH...if you really believe in this particular issue, you need to figure out a way to not be so unbelievably offensive to others...screaming, ranting, and raving, are not the way to get people to listen...in fact it turns potential allies off.
    Ok, could you please point out where I've screamed, ranted or raved?? Yes, I made ONE remark about how stunned I was that people didn't see anything wrong w/the pics I posted. Yes, I phrased it as "you must be blind" or something which WAS less friendly than it could have been. I admit that.

    What else have I typed that is so dramatically offensive?

    Given the complete slam I am getting from some people on this post, I think I've been extraordinarily agreeable. Trying many times to explain my position. Just to get slammed again.

    Now, I don't really care what these people think of me, but it is nothing less than amazing to me that you think that I am the one being offensive, screaming, ranting, and lets not leave out raving.

    Remaining perplexed,

    Tiffany
    The two most important days in your life are the day you're born and the day you find out why. Mark Twain

    Comment


    • #82
      Guess the rules 'push a point of view' as well.....but those who want to show by them should use them.
      yawn, we're back to this nonsense?

      Speaking in generalizations: the judges follow the rules, the riders follow the rules, the performances adhere to the FEI's objectives as closely as the riders/horses are able on a given day.

      Yoda, it might benefit you to familiarize yourself with the rules and objectives of dressage a bit more thoroughly, because there are MANY. And then (armed with this enlightened view) watch some of the top performances, and you'll not be able to say with any credibility that the riders are not fulfilling many/most of the objectives either at least SATISFACTORILY (6), or more often FAIRLY GOOD (7) GOOD (8) or sometimes VERY GOOD (9), which is what is reflected in the final scores, which is WHAT JUDGING IS ABOUT. It's not about fanatics and agendas, it's about determining who best fulfilled the objectives of dressage on a given day (ALL of the objectives yoda, not just YOUR favorites, wink.)

      Did you miss the threads (here, and on "that other" board) discussing and comparing the photos of winning rides/riders from the 1920's to today? Some excellent points were made, including the fact that the "flaws" for which the modern riders are accused WERE EVIDENT "BACK THEN" ALSO. And many good points were made to point out ways in which the newer photos were (gasp) BETTER. You might find those threads quite educational, I recommend them. Perhaps then we can put to rest this absurd notion that somehow modern riding is not fulfilling the objectives of dressage as well as "classical" riding was.

      Oh, oops, I was trying to avoid any serious posting, and was just hanging around for troll poking!

      PS, Patootie, don't worry, we ALL wonder where yoda gets this stuff...

      Show me a fanatic without an agenda, and I'll ride my next GP naked. We won't even need satellite for that (hahaha).
      "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

      Comment


      • #83
        Oh good grief shut the door quickly, ALL the trolls are migrating over here!
        "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by pinecone
          Yoda, it might benefit you to familiarize yourself with the rules and objectives of dressage a bit more thoroughly, because there are MANY. And then (armed with this enlightened view) watch some of the top performances, and you'll not be able to say with any credibility that the riders are not fulfilling many/most of the objectives either at least SATISFACTORILY (6), or more often FAIRLY GOOD (7) GOOD (8) or sometimes VERY GOOD (9), which is what is reflected in the final scores, which is WHAT JUDGING IS ABOUT.
          were you trying to be hilarious with this? it cracked me up.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by pinecone
            Oh good grief shut the door quickly, ALL the trolls are migrating over here!
            why are you so rude????

            Comment


            • #86
              Hi Kettle, meet Pot.

              lol.
              "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by pinecone
                Hi Kettle, meet Pot.

                lol.
                Darned glad to meet you pot...have you met double boiler...frypan....and saucepan?

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by Horsedances
                  It seems that after the big blackout of the UDBboard some weeks ago some people from that board are still hanging around here, digging out dead cows.
                  Please GO HOME
                  Wow! How arrogant. You know this is a public BB and just because you spend a lot of time here it doesn't give you extra special rights to decide who ought to be here and what subject matters should be in the posts. The readership around here is much more fluid than your personal little cliques.

                  If you are tired of Rolkur posts then...Don't open them--even more effective: don't post on them. The nastiness of the pro-Rolkur crowd is enough to make me want to be against it. Personally I like passionate people--I may not agree with them but I have a certain respect for them.

                  While I really don't have a strong opinion one way or another I keep waiting for close up pictures of Rolkur horses right beside close up head shots of Tennessee Walking Horses. You know those horses aren't in pain and don't really look like it either--even if training methods have included cutting out the frog, replacing it with a golf ball then putting the shoes and pads back on. Of course you get caught doing that you get suspended. No big deal, 20 minutes after the suspension is lifted (or you get out of jail) your business resumes as normal because if your a proven winner you'll always have clients. At least GP dressage people aren't like that...right?

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by subk
                    Wow! How arrogant. You know this is a public BB and just because you spend a lot of time here it doesn't give you extra special rights to decide who ought to be here and what subject matters should be in the posts. The readership around here is much more fluid than your personal little cliques.

                    If you are tired of Rolkur posts then...Don't open them--even more effective: don't post on them. The nastiness of the pro-Rolkur crowd is enough to make me want to be against it. Personally I like passionate people--I may not agree with them but I have a certain respect for them.

                    While I really don't have a strong opinion one way or another I keep waiting for close up pictures of Rolkur horses right beside close up head shots of Tennessee Walking Horses. You know those horses aren't in pain and don't really look like it either--even if training methods have included cutting out the frog, replacing it with a golf ball then putting the shoes and pads back on. Of course you get caught doing that you get suspended. No big deal, 20 minutes after the suspension is lifted (or you get out of jail) your business resumes as normal because if your a proven winner you'll always have clients. At least GP dressage people aren't like that...right?
                    Who says I am Pro RK, read all of my postings and you should know better. I only hate it when people who never saw Anky, Edward, Laurens, Isabelle, Martin, Nicolle etc..etc.. training try to damage them
                    based on "go with the flow" arguments.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Horsedances
                      Who says I am Pro RK, read all of my postings and you should know better.
                      I have no clue whether you are pro or anti anything and could care less. I just think telling people to "go home" is over the top.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Guys, guys, guys....................let's face it, NEITHER side in this debate has a monopoly on manners, kindness and tolerance. Both sides have 'members' who can get heated here and to say it is the pro rkers only that get nasty is just silly and innaccurate. It comes from both sides, at least be realistic.

                        That aside when arguing that we use pics of rk to 'prove' it is hard on the horses, well that would only be vaild and useful for the purposes of a debate if the pics (that are so often used on these forums, the same ones over and over again, from the ONE source,) WERE NOT taken by someone with an axe to grind against the method itself. Lets have a pro rker take pics at a show, edit them, select the ones they want for their purposes, or better still someone who was totally neutral in the debate, then if those pics still look harsh and show horses twisted and tormented you might have a case. Because I have seen MANY horses in RK that look supple, relaxed and a lot less under duress than the many hollowed backed, held up so called traditionally trained horses. These pics as posted in the horses for life site and all other Theresa wannabe sites, do not prove your argument that rk is anymore harsh than traditional training techniques that ask a horse to perform GP. At the end of the day if you ONLY measure the merits of RK from still pics then you are missing the point. Go and watch Anky warm up in real life, you may well come away with a new outlook.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by nero
                          Guys, guys, guys....................let's face it, NEITHER side in this debate has a monopoly on manners, kindness and tolerance.
                          My point is that there are people who participate here who aren't regulars and don't know or follow the debate and you all act as if this is some private club.

                          And be careful in making the claim of what would "be useful and valid for debate." Why do you get to decide? If you personally deem it "unvalid," don't debate.

                          I'll leave now and let you ladies resume...

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Originally posted by subk
                            My point is that there are people who participate here who aren't regulars and don't know or follow the debate and you all act as if this is some private club.

                            And be careful in making the claim of what would "be useful and valid for debate." Why do you get to decide? If you personally deem it "unvalid," don't debate.

                            I'll leave now and let you ladies resume...
                            That would be 'invalid' btw, but anyway, do you not think that using evidence to back up an argument that was impartial would be a good idea?????? Even the photograhper that took those pics admits they are bias against rk. Gee I hardly think I'm being THAT revoluntionary. So you can leave the threats of 'be careful' at the door thanks, I was making a pretty sensible suggestion and you get all uppity and judgemental on my a$#^!!

                            That I think the evidence IS INVALID is exactly WHY I am arguing the point, that in itself is a reason to debate something, that the evidence is flawed, they do in courts of law all the time. Its a normal part of debating.

                            ..........if you want to be accepted here and not feel that 'exclusivity' exists perhaps try a little civility and not judge peple and get personal. My post was in no way personal about anyone in particular - just trying to look at the big picture - yet you seem to have a need to get personal with me.............same old story.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Originally posted by subk
                              I have no clue whether you are pro or anti anything and could care less. I just think telling people to "go home" is over the top.

                              While acknowleging your right to post and state your opinion- you are obviously not in the 'know' as this is a very tight club of keyboard artists, that pretty much regularly- I would say every 4 to 6 weeks- face off rather intensely on this debate. It never ceases to amaze me that all it takes is a little time off and enough energy is saved up again to go into the ring again and spar another round...this is so to speak a private, much enjoyed feud- even though the innocent onlooker might feel compelled to defend one or the other....
                              Since you have a lot of postings on your record but don't seem familiar in the dressage board- I am assuming you're not quite in the know yet...well- let me introduce you:
                              there are several steady players here- and every so often a new one gets lost into these discussions and usually trashed...
                              the Pro-or tolerant line- I will call them the democrats are lots of foreigners (me included) and other folks that have either had the chance to ride/audit/see/work with RK top notch trainers or are basically of the mindset that this is a free world, the horses are apparently not dying and therefore everyone has their own right to do as they please.

                              The Other side consists of lots of US riders( let's call them the republicans..) that have a strong belief in either animal rights or old fashioned dressage god adoration and want to keep things they used to be like 20-30 years ago...they feel the method is abusive and potentially dangerous to the horse. There is also a tad of unspoken resentment at times- as most of these folks have not trained in Europe, taken clinics with RK riders or at least most of the time not been in close contact with one of those top riders.

                              Horsedances asking the remnants of the UDBB down times to leave was maybe rude but his point was- go to the board where you can spend all day talking bad about RK...and I support this view too.

                              The real question in the end is: have horses suffered a lot because of RK and if they have- do they suffer as much as those that you describe because they have their feet disfigured, or those that are treated abusively to jump higher or those that get raced at age 2 and die on the track.

                              Usually the latter are in the worst scenario - because they DO die. I am not aware of a horse dying from RK- but of course it could have happened. I am aware of horses dying in spirit in many ways by abusive riding that was well tolerated and watched day in day out by many.

                              It seems that we are not able to come to a conclusion and for that lack of a better topic where we can really get hot about something and jump at each others throats- RK will have to do...:LOL!
                              "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                """The Other side consists of lots of US riders( let's call them the republicans..)""""

                                Sabine LOL, too funny, couldn't agree more!!!!

                                Nice, respectful post Sabine, I'm sure it will considered in various ways however.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by nero
                                  """The Other side consists of lots of US riders( let's call them the republicans..)""""

                                  Sabine LOL, too funny, couldn't agree more!!!!

                                  Nice, respectful post Sabine, I'm sure it will considered in various ways however.
                                  I am wearing my helmet and full body protective gear...LOL!
                                  "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Tewhann, thank you for posting the link to Horses for Life. I found the photos rather telling (actually they're in the June 2006 article "A Rollkur Pictogram"). I believe many training methods, including rollkur, can be painful or harmful to horses. Personally, I find it UGLY. It offends my sensibilities. But I am nobody important, chopped liver as it were.

                                    If this topic were truly as boring as your adversaries say, then why are they all participating in the thread? Why don't they skip to the next topic? When I see topics that do not interest me, I don't even read them. I see the same tired old subjects over and over, yet I feel no need to grab a pitchfork and light a torch.

                                    Perhaps it has not occurred to these six or eight or 12 people that there are others who read these forums who might be interested.

                                    My questions: Are RK trained horses really "better" than horses trained by traditional methods, or do they just get there faster? If faster, then is faster better? What does "better" mean anyway?

                                    Some here have defended rollkur in the name of progress. How is this progress measured? In horse racing, progress (time) is concrete and finite and easy to measure. For rollkur and dressage, what measures can be compared to say whether the end justifies the means?


                                    Holly

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by LarkspurCO


                                      My questions: Are RK trained horses really "better" than horses trained by traditional methods.



                                      Holly
                                      Yes, at the moment, the three top horses in the world are trained rk, Warum Nitch, Lingh and Salinero - I know Briar too is trained very deep. These horses, esp Anky's and Isabelles, have long careers, think Bonfire and Gigolo, so I don't think its so much a fast tracking exercise as one that they feel gives term long term, solid results - I do not believe RK horses are bought up to GP any faster than non rk horses, this is a bit of a myth. The Klaus Balkenhol 'supervised' Farbenfroh was at international GP by the time he was eight - he was NOT RK, but got there in seemingly record time under a trainer who is now VERY outspoken AGAINST RK, so I don't think one can claim RK is fast tracking more than traditional training.

                                      THE other thing I notice about RK trained horses is that they are so willing, Salinero and Bonfire in particualr seem to give 110% each time they go/went out, a horse under duress or distressed would not do that.

                                      And I don't think the issue is that people posting here are not interested in the topic or happy to debate, but just tired of the same old pics trundled out by the anti camp ad nauseum. No problem arguing new issues about the subject, but to simply post pics we've ALL seen before is a bit dull and to say seeing a thread about Anky reminded me to be outraged is just a little blah, that's all, there was nothing new in the OP. Having said that I'm happy to argue the issue any time, any place, and equally as happy for people to do the same on the other side.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        the topic is not boring when it is discussed in an adult manner. it is not discussed that way here.

                                        going to the other board is a good idea when you feel the need to be surrounded with people who agree with you, and when the people here are tiring of the tirades. it's cozy and comfy to be around people who agree with one.

                                        'go home' doesn't mean literally 'go home', it means 'we're sick of hearing about it'. to most people, they would take it as, 'well, perhaps this isn't the place to discuss it'. but HERE, it means it needs to be discussed MORE! LOL!

                                        there are bulletin boards where one can go and discuss herbal cures for diabetes, and people will roar their approval at you. there are also boards where there are parents of children who were killed by herbal cures for diabetes, and if you go there and talk about that, they will have you for dinner. what people want to hear and what people want to discuss, varies from board to board, depending on history, and depending on how badly certain topics inflame certain residents and how badly people want to not hear certain residents flame on ad nauseum again.

                                        that doesn't necessarily, or even usually, mean that those who are objecting are pro-rollkur. generally, it means that those who are objecting are tired of holier-than-thou.

                                        what many people object to here is the holier-than-thou attitude of the anti rollkurists, who attack anyone who doesn't agree 100% with them and accuse them of horse abuse, take on. they accuse the rollkurists of killing horses and quote sources that back them up - sources that at times have quite a bit of self promotion side of their anti rollkur stance. the only person whose anti rollkur stance i respect is ingrid klimke's. the others all seem to be doing far too much of blowing their own horns. when doing so sends a flurry of business their way, and makes them be held up as gods of classicism, it does, indeed, seem a bit much.

                                        in fact, i have gotten pm's from people who say, 'i don't care for rollkur and won't train my horses that way, but when i listen to THOSE PEOPLE harp on and on, it makes me sick. i think if that's how they are tackling it, maybe i should reconsider, LOL'.

                                        not to say the pro rollkurists here offer anything better in return. most here i don't think have much experience with it, and are just repeating things they heard, too.

                                        i think here, it's a tempest in a teapot. it's people who don't know anything about it and are pro vs. people who don't know anything about it and are contra. i read the statements of both sides and frankly, am not satisfied that either side has a clue.

                                        frankly, to me, neither side's arguments hold water.

                                        it doesn't hold water that it's killing horses, as the main horses trained that way the most publicly seem to have a surprisingly contradictory health and longevity. nor does it hold water that it's right to do it because people are doing it and winning. it doesn't hold water that they all go like crap, either, because they don't.

                                        win at any cost? the emotional argument. but that's not always exactly what the pro rollkurists are saying when they talk about it winning.

                                        still, the antis grab any statement about its success and pounce on it saying that doesn't make it right, and then they practically start frothing at the mouth saying about how people who say that don't love their darling horsey poohs.

                                        the other aspect of it is that it is, at this point, legal. people are able to decide how they want to train their horse. if they want to, fine, if they don't want to, fine. it's legal. if you want it made illegal, go to committee. it won't be made illegal by ranting on this bulletin board. sorry, but this bulletin board doesn't have that much power over the international community.

                                        anyone can shoot holes in any stance, and sound clever. here, the cleverest sounding shpiel wins. it's a shame, really. the cleverest sounding shpiel doesn't always hold water.
                                        Last edited by slc2; Aug. 16, 2006, 08:22 AM.

                                        Comment


                                        • ..... and we're forever thankful to have our omnipotent slc give us the straight scoop on what we're really saying. :-)
                                          Siegi Belz
                                          www.stalleuropa.com
                                          2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                                          Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

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