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A flow on question from the extended trot thread

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  • #21
    Thanks for the vids Theo, Chacomo was really lovely to watch, shame he got sick.
    Balkenhol was awesome!
    Lovely horses amazing riding. Thanks

    Comment


    • #22
      The first video (haven't got the second downloaded yet) does bring up a point about photography.

      There are points during the trot movement where the front and hind cannon bones are perfectly parallel. And there are points during the movement (mostly when he curls the fore leg up for that expressive knee action) where they are not parallel.

      A photo caught in the landing phase would show parallel cannons, but a photo shot in the airborne phase would not. Same horse.

      (I have to admit I personally don't like that exaggerated movement. I don't like jeweled browbands either. Plain brown tack, you know? Some of us oldies just can't get used to the new stuff. *sigh*)

      Wowwy overstep, though. Wowwy air time.
      -- Member of the COTH Appendix QH clique and the dressage-saddle-thigh-block-hating clique.

      Comment


      • #23
        Wonderful video clips. I find something very interesting, especially after reading a coment elsewhere about the quality of gaits in rollkur horses.

        First, look closely at the quality of Goldstern's walk and canter. The walk has that 'too light on the front feet' quality that Bonfire was often criticized for. The clear 'V' of a good quality walk is certainly not apparent, and there are times it looks to be more of an amble than a true walk. Is this created by tension, or did Goldstern not just have a good walk?

        Then I look at the canter. There is a hoppiness, rather than the big sweeping canter you would expect to see. Again, maybe the fact that Goldstern wasn't the most gifted of horses, and perhaps had flaws in his gait to start. Or maybe the horse was tense like Bonfire. But should not KB's classical training have rectified that?

        Finally I look at the pirouette. The horse does not sit. If you look closely, there are times where the horse does more of a 'spin in the middle', with the haunches swinging out around the middle. On the pirouette that KB rides quite large, only then do we see Goldstern keep his tail in line.

        So the fatal flaws that are seen elsewhere and attributed to poorly trained and rollkur'd horses are also quite evident here. Why would this happen with such a wonderful trainer as KB on board? And if it happened with KB on board, then why would it be taken so seriously with other riders aboard, and overlook because KB's on the horse?

        It is very confusing to me.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by Patootie
          Wonderful video clips. I find something very interesting, especially after reading a coment elsewhere about the quality of gaits in rollkur horses.

          First, look closely at the quality of Goldstern's walk and canter. The walk has that 'too light on the front feet' quality that Bonfire was often criticized for. The clear 'V' of a good quality walk is certainly not apparent, and there are times it looks to be more of an amble than a true walk. Is this created by tension, or did Goldstern not just have a good walk?

          Then I look at the canter. There is a hoppiness, rather than the big sweeping canter you would expect to see. Again, maybe the fact that Goldstern wasn't the most gifted of horses, and perhaps had flaws in his gait to start. Or maybe the horse was tense like Bonfire. But should not KB's classical training have rectified that?

          Finally I look at the pirouette. The horse does not sit. If you look closely, there are times where the horse does more of a 'spin in the middle', with the haunches swinging out around the middle. On the pirouette that KB rides quite large, only then do we see Goldstern keep his tail in line.

          So the fatal flaws that are seen elsewhere and attributed to poorly trained and rollkur'd horses are also quite evident here. Why would this happen with such a wonderful trainer as KB on board? And if it happened with KB on board, then why would it be taken so seriously with other riders aboard, and overlook because KB's on the horse?

          It is very confusing to me.
          Don't feel confused. You are on the right track and on a good/healthy way of educating yourself to some specific types of training...what is and what shouldn't be!
          www.stfrancispetmedals.com

          Comment


          • #25
            I was noticing the same things Patootie - it looked very very very tense....

            almost like KB had a cattle prod under that seat a couple times.

            Call me "new" but if I had the choice, I'd ride Chacomo

            Comment


            • #26
              The parallelogram is evident only between the fore forearm/hind cannon of the diagonal pair at the apex of the "reach". Watch the slo-mo vid and you will see the ANGLES of the forearm/hind cannon are equal WHEN the horses' activity behind is the same in front. If it were the diagonal cannons, which some seem to think it is, the only way to get the fore cannon equal to the hind cannon would be if the fore was straight. The other indicator of equal activity between front and back is the "V" we see is the space between the forelegs and the space between the hindlegs. If the horse is in balance and the activity is equal, these two "V"'s will be equal. Look at some of the photos posted, most will have much more activity in the front, that extravagant movement so prevalent today

              These two photos from the site posted by the OP show what I mean very well. The "V" is out of proportion and the hind needs much more activity.
              000717912 and 010618114
              *** 4 More Years ***
              *** 4 More Years ***

              Comment


              • #27
                "if i had the choice i'd ride chacomo"

                oh dear god. LOL. and you'd die.

                these riders give a very deceptive appearance of these horses being easy and this work being easy. these riders fix things before they blow because they themselves have very fast reactions and excellent feel.

                these are not easy horses.

                the gesture is 'after' the parallel drive as the person said who looked at the slow motions.

                that is correct, and shows the freedom of the front. you like it in the flying lead change, don't you, LOL?

                that is a sign of the balance of the horse and its correct training.

                like all great horses that have gone down in history, goldstern was at times brilliant and at times tense, however, he was a very well schooled horse and tried extremely hard. i would be hard pressed to think of any horse that tried harder. he is definitely the little engine that couldn't say no. he went thru a period toward the end of his career, where he was having problems dealing with sights and sounds in the busy competition grounds.

                goldstern, remember, was bought for about 3000 dollars, and was a very poorly considered horse. to do what he did - that's nothing short of a miracle. he had a problem with the piaffe mechanics for quite some time - a problem i was shocked that anyone could fix - ever - to any degree. balkenhol is not god, but he is a brilliant trainer.

                what you all are talking about, how horse R (rollkurred horse) is bad, and horse N (non rollkurred horse) is good - that just depends on when you are looking and what sort of axe you are trying to grind, though also, at the same time you say dressage is for all horses, you're criticizing the gaits of specific horses, and trying to make out that the gaits are faulty due to training. you can't say that dressage is for all, and then trash the individual natural movement of a horse.

                each horse has good and bad moments in every test, every warmup, every ride. go look at the back page in kyra's book, take two aspirin, and call us in the morning.
                Last edited by slc2; Jul. 18, 2006, 04:05 PM.

                Comment


                • #28
                  lol never said I would be "able" to ride it, just said if I had a choice! LOL

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    and I want a button that says"

                    quoting slc2


                    "you can't say that dressage is for all, and then trash the individual natural movement of a horse."

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      i am glad this discussion is happening.... i have thought about this periodically when talk gets to gaits.

                      so i watched both vids - they are lovely. (tnx theo) and the short trot sequence is interesting... i watched it several times - both regular speed and slo mo. what appeared to me is that is looks like the hind end and the front end are not quite synced up. there are times (as already mentioned) that the legs do syc and times when there are off. i am having a hard time articulating what i mean by unsynced.... kinda like the trot front end was on one time and the hind on another... not off by much but enough that it is visible. (if you watch the goldstern vid right after that you can see the difference in timing) i altho thought that the neck was a tad short. super over track.

                      i am not sure regarding the out of sync thing why this would happen and what would a rider do to prevent this if they wanted to?

                      as for goldstern - i agree with slc2 - he was a police horse - and he is a testament for good training. that he came as far as he did is a miracle. and a beacon for all that doesnt have gamillion dollar horses

                      while his gaits are not that of a modern horse his CPs looked dinner plate sized and his extended trot looked for the most part even and engaged. i didnt get that out of sync feeling watching it.

                      if i got to choose which to ride i would pick goldstern - just because of who he was. and, knowing how difficult it is to ride a very elastic horse i *know* it would be torture to ride the first trot (and wow does that rider make it look easy!!!)

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Dressage IS for every horse

                        Yes dressage IS for every horse. BUT!

                        I still don't understand why when Goldstern demonstrates faulty gaits, it's due to his 'difficult nature' or 'difficult background'. When a RK rider has a horse who demonstrates the SAME IDENTICAL fault in the gaits, it's due to bad training?

                        So great, KB managed to take this peice of equine refuse and turn it into a shining star. But if the gaits are truly the hallmark of good training, where are they? It's nice to say that he's such a great trainer, look what he's done, but has he honestly improved this horses gaits? He he taught this horse to swing through his back, and relax? What of the training scale?

                        The dinner size CP is one thing, but spinning around the middle is the equivalent to me of running backwards away from the piaffe.


                        Now, as Goldstern I believe had a fairly short career as a competitive dressage horse, I do wonder whether he was having soundness issues that prevented him from relaxing, showing pure gaits, and showing quality engagement and collection in the pirouette. But even so, the problem as I see it is that in this case because KB is the poster-boy for classical dressage, the same flaws that are deemed fatal elsewhere are being overlooked as trivial.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          10?

                          Theo - did Chacomo receive a 10 for that trot?

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            oh for god's sake. goldstern was not a piece of refuse, and he was not a police horse, he was, according to my friend that was at balkenhols and saw him up close, not a particularly fancy looking horse just standing there looking at you. but many aren't. he was purchased by the dept and wound up being a dressage horse instead. balkenhol worked for the dept training horses, spotted him and was interested in working with him.

                            the information about the horse that i posted, could be posted for just about any horse in top sport. every horse has its strengths and weaknesses. they are horses, not gods. no horse is perfect, no horse is worthless.

                            pretty soon you guys will be saying klaus unhitched him from a rag wagon or dragged him out of riot gear. pascal, from klimke stable, was also a fairly ordinary mover. by the way, another non rollkured horse who was extremely spooky, i have videos of klimke warming him up at his home barn in his home routine, and he is spooking at every single letter in the ring. never rollkured in his life and at least until the next post from tonja where we find out to our dismay that The Doctor doesn't measure up, we still respect klimke as being a correct, classical trainer.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              When I said refuse, it was sarcasm.

                              But the question still holds.

                              If purity of gaits is the hallmark, for lack of a better word, of a well trained horse, then what happened to Goldstern?

                              Training or nature?

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                what the hell do you mean, 'what happened to goldstern'?

                                my god, how perfect do you think any of them will ever be? what sort of pressure do you put your OWN horses under, and what kind of scrutiny? or your OWN riding?

                                slc

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I'm confused.... I dont think anyone said any of the horses were perfect, just the opposite in fact. Judging each horse for its own abitities and traits presented.

                                  besides, wasnt Salinero a jumper before Anky got him?

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    'what happened to goldstern' is hardly worth having a coronary over. I would certainly hope there's more important things in life than an internet discussion to get worked up over.

                                    What happened to Goldstern means, if the same flaws we see in HIS gaits are also seen in RK horses gaits, and have been attributed over and over to training in RK, then how did Goldstern wind up with the same flaws?

                                    Or is it too hard to admit that those flaws that Bonfire and others were crucified for may not exactly be do entirely to the training?

                                    What type of pressure do I put my own horses under? I wouldn't say I put them under extreme pressure, however, I am extremely tough on myself for my riding. And when I cannot somehow improve a faulty gait, I would first look to see maybe if there's a soundness issue involved that I may be unaware of, and then if there isn't, there is no one to blame except myself.

                                    I don't know what Salinero's original training is, but he was nuts.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by slc2
                                      oh for god's sake. goldstern was not a piece of refuse, and he was not a police horse,.
                                      from http://www.balkenhol.org/englisch/mitte_pferde.htm

                                      Farewell to ‘Rabauke’

                                      On Wednesday, 8 May 1985, an extraordinary dressage career ended. ‘Rabauke’, the 17-year-old Hanoverian gelding of the Düsseldorf Mounted Police who, apart from doing his service as a patrol horse or during police operations, was overwhelmingly successful in international dressage competitions, was finally sent to retirement by Dr. Schnoor, the Minister of the Interior of Northrhine-Westphalia.Due to a knee injury ‘Rabauke’ was no longer up to the permanent stress of daily patrol rides nor was he able to face the extreme stress of top dressage sport. Following a proposal of Dr. Lisken, the President of the Düsseldorf Police, Dr. Schnoor gave this merited and internationally famous dressage and police horse to his rider and trainer, senior police officer Klaus Balkenhol. ‘Rabauke’ will spend his retirement near Balkenhol’s home at Hilden and will receive excellent and loving care from the whole Balkenhol family.

                                      Quelle: Presseabteilung Innenministerium NRW





                                      ‘Goldstern’ – love at first sight

                                      In 1981 Klaus Balkenhol and his boss Werner Vatter visited (‘only for interest’s sake’) the new arrivals in the group of young ‘apprentice’ hoses in the riding school at Cologne. Both agreed that the horse ‘Goldstern’ had special qualities (‘although he is only a small horse by size he has the potential to become a great one’). So ‘Goldstern’ became a member of the mounted police squadron at Düsseldorf. Despite intensive schooling, the first dressage tests with ‘Goldstern’ were more or less a disaster ‘because of his special temperament which is not easy to handle’. With a lot of patience and step by step ‘Goldstern’ was made familiar with the classical dressage lessons ‘although at that time he also took part in carnival processions and was used for police operations during the home matches of Fortuna Düsseldorf’. The first small trophies which he won in less important, regional horse shows confirmed the supposed qualities of the police horse. But with increasing age and maturity ‘Goldstern’ rewarded the dedication of his rider with more and more success. Thus in 1989 the pair won ‘several Grand-Prix competitions and it was foreseeable that ‘Goldstern’ would become a good horse’. After becoming vice champion in Mannheim in 1990, 1991 should become the year of a great success. The pair won the German Dressage Championships in Münster. With the exception of 1994, when they did not compete, this success could be repeated every year.

                                      <snip>

                                      Despite all his victories in dressage one should never forget that ‘Goldstern’s’ first and foremost ‘job’ is to be a police horse with tasks quite different from those in the dressage arena. "

                                      so we have two police horses doing internation dressage

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Salinero was bred to be a jumper but I don't know if he ever trained/competed as such.

                                        How did Chacomo die? What did Fabenfroh die of? I knew he was having lameness issues for a long time but didn't know he had died. What is the deal with Weltall? It seems all too often the spectacular ones aren't around too long. It is very sad.

                                        Goldstern looks stiff, a bit tense, and not often so submissive to me. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some issues. KB is amazing. ( I think Anky is amazing too) I don't think this particular horse would be near as competitive today.

                                        Good riding can only do so much for the natural talent and gaits of the horse where as bad riding can much easier destroy the great ones.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Patootie

                                          I don't know what Salinero's original training is, but he was nuts.
                                          im confused about this... i read in an article here on COTH i think,. that Salinero was a young horse champion and he was purchased after the championships for one of AVGs (or SJs) young clients.... after they saw him in action they decided to purchase him.

                                          i have never read anywhere (altho i dont read everything) , except here on bb's that he was nuts.. can you provide sources or articles i can read?

                                          Comment

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