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CDI Lingen - results disprove theory

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  • #41
    An opinion? Not really. Lets take judging and riding out of it. Lets just look at breeding trends.

    Would you say that horses today are NOT being bred for additional front end action?

    Would you say that the young horses winning do NOT show a trend towards a higher front leg and a lower hind leg?

    Would you say that most horses being bred, in Holland particularly, have parallel cannon bones at the trot?

    I would say that more and more, particularly in Dutch horses, the trend is towards what I call "flash" action that results in impure gaits.

    Oh, I WISH that the judges didn't know what they are doing. I WISH they were just ignorant or stupid. But that isn't the case nor should that be how my post reads.

    This isn't "chance" or ignorance. It is a decision to move towards a new trend.

    More than ever before.....
    The two most important days in your life are the day you're born and the day you find out why. Mark Twain

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #42
      Originally posted by mbm
      i dont think anyone said that the halo effect was only about avg?

      regards to Mr schmidt - i dont have time to look at the photos, but i know that his training is classical - he is just paying the bills by giving what the judges like....

      and fwiw, we always hear about how come if, classical is so good, how come it doenst win? so i thought i would start pointing out that it DOES win.

      You don't have time to look at ONE pic of a hero of yours doing a sport you love??!!!!! Yet you have seemingly all the time in the world to review rides you don't like and post here and other boards - a lot!!!

      Interesting list of priorities.

      FWIW, IF you looked at the pic, you would see a mare that is much more extravagant in front than behind, and I can guarantee you NO judges prefer to see that over an engaged horse, that is tracking up, I would say she'd only be pulling sixes for that trot work, hardly Schmidt giving the judges what they want. You just contradicted yourself, you argue Schmidts horse doesn't overtrack in ext trot (the pic) because he's only giving the judges what they want and its not an indicator for classical dressage THEN you say classical IS winning. I'm confused, which is it????

      Comment


      • #43
        Can we agree that she starts with the right stuff"? fabulous horses
        breeder of Mercury!

        remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #44
          Originally posted by Carol Ames
          Can we agree that she starts with the right stuff"? fabulous horses
          Well maybe. On face value yes they are very talented but I don't think anyone would say that Salinero, Painted Black or esp Bonfire were overly special when Anky firs got them. Salinero was almost unrideable apparently, and has some issues with overtracking and relaxation, Painted Black failed classification and Bonfire, well not very attractive, bad walk, funny conformation. BUT they all seem incredibly trainable under Anky, I think she made them what they are/were, its not like any of them were Florencio or Sandro Hit or Poetin, ie horses that had remarkable raw talent.

          Comment


          • #45
            Lord, I would Hope to Heck that by the time you are the #1 rider in the world, you get the choice of horses, not cast offs and retreads!!!! I mean, I already Ride those sorts, so what is the point on reaching international heights if you still ride conformationally challenged, emotionally difficult horses??? Are there any horses out there that are considered good quality - normal sane horses - and then become international stars - or all they all just a little psychotic??? I worry.

            Now, I know all about Anky's history with Bonnie - that is different - he was the one that really took her to the top, Prisco got her started, but her relationship and success with Bonfire is what made her the #1 rider. So, I know he was not the horse everyone would want to ride, but why now? Why doesn't she have a stable full of the very best - the cream of the crop? Really, I am just asking - because it seems inconcievable to me that she doesn't get to pick and choose.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by nero
              You don't have time to look at ONE pic of a hero of yours doing a sport you love??!!!!! Yet you have seemingly all the time in the world to review rides you don't like and post here and other boards - a lot!!!

              Interesting list of priorities.

              FWIW, IF you looked at the pic, you would see a mare that is much more extravagant in front than behind, and I can guarantee you NO judges prefer to see that over an engaged horse, that is tracking up, I would say she'd only be pulling sixes for that trot work, hardly Schmidt giving the judges what they want. You just contradicted yourself, you argue Schmidts horse doesn't overtrack in ext trot (the pic) because he's only giving the judges what they want and its not an indicator for classical dressage THEN you say classical IS winning. I'm confused, which is it????
              your funny.

              it you read what i posted i said i was answering VERY generally and not talking about the pic....

              i disagree that judges dont like flashy front legs - its what wins.

              and yes, i was VERY busy over the last week - i had a couple jobs that were very time sensitive... and didnt want to get in a huge discussion about this - its pointless... you are clearly very bitter and have huge chip on your shoulder re: me. <shrug> i dont really care.

              i just wanted to give HUGE props to mr schmidt for again showing that yes, classical does win. !!

              Comment


              • #47
                i just wanted to give HUGE props to mr schmidt for again showing that yes, classical does win. !!
                so the judges are Ok then.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #48
                  Originally posted by mbm
                  your funny.

                  it you read what i posted i said i was answering VERY generally and not talking about the pic....
                  well obviously, you were too busy to click one link to view one pic, so you couldn't be talking about that. But perhaps you should since you appear now to be avoiding it because you possibly couldn't explain why a horse Schmidt is one is showing the same, actually much worse, example of a poor extended trot that you and other claim rk trained horses display as a result of poor training? You don't appear too busy right now, perhaps you should take a peek and get back to us with your appraisal of what's going on there?

                  PS Schmidt didn't win, I think he came second, to a horse that is trained deep, (not rk, but deep)

                  Oh god, not bitter mbm, I love all these riders, I think they are great!!!! just amused at how you seem unable to justify your ideas with a logical thought process or original ideas and sometimes its fun to try and extract answers. But if you would like to put it down to my 'bitterness' and thus avoid arguiing the actual issue and instead sledge me - go ahead. Still doesn't answer the question though.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by nero
                    well obviously, you were too busy to click one link to view one pic, so you couldn't be talking about that. But perhaps you should since you appear now to be avoiding it because you possibly couldn't explain why a horse Schmidt is one is showing the same, actually much worse, example of a poor extended trot that you and other claim rk trained horses display as a result of poor training? You don't appear too busy right now, perhaps you should take a peek and get back to us with your appraisal of what's going on there?

                    PS Schmidt didn't win, I think he came second, to a horse that is trained deep, (not rk, but deep)

                    Oh god, not bitter mbm, I love all these riders, I think they are great!!!! just amused at how you seem unable to justify your ideas with a logical thought process or original ideas and sometimes its fun to try and extract answers. But if you would like to put it down to my 'bitterness' and thus avoid arguiing the actual issue and instead sledge me - go ahead. Still doesn't answer the question though.

                    Trying to explain training styles is a bit like trying to explain Aztec math to people who don't understand that two totally different training styles can produce a similar ride. I think that mbm is in denial and doesn't want to believe that Schmidt's horse might go like a RK horse or, better yet, might be a similar style horse to Salinero!
                    www.stfrancispetmedals.com

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                    • #50
                      don't expect that question to be answered anytime soon, Nero.
                      MBM is sitting between a rock and a hard place- she has to be loyal to her classical convictions and still accept the fact that Anky did not win in Lingen- because PB is not that good and neither is Krack...which means that the judges might actually be judging what they see and doing their jobs...whoopdidoo!!! Who would have thought that...???

                      Only those folks that regularly are exposed to the extensive training and schooling program these judges have to be aware of and the incredible awareness they all have of what is going on and being said in the press- will know that they actually do judge according to very clear rules and according to what they SEE!! that's all.
                      Accept it and live with it...if Anky makes a superhorse with her training method so be it... if Hubertus ever succeeds to make a superhorse with his method so be it...it comes down to actual delivery of the product at the exact appointed time with the exact required goods- and Anky has been the best consistently at doing just that...in my mind- she has the ultimate show balls..!!! therefore I have the highest admiration for her!! and this has nothing to do with her method, her husband, her son, her previous or future horses...just her and how she can deliver.
                      "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #51
                        I would like to see a bit more respect for the judges judging at the top level, knowing what they go through to earn the right to judge and knowing how experienced they are as horse people it annoys me to see people here, who often demonstrate how little they actually know that isn't just regurgitation of someone else's opinion they THINK is knowledgeable, can criticise judges who are doing a thankless and difficult and highly skilled job. Its not black and white, no matter how much you want it to be, just because YOU don't like Salinero yet he still wins does not mean the judges are incompetent or corrupt I'm afraid. It just means he's the best horse on the day, not perfect, not flawless, just the best on the day...........

                        Still waiting mbm for your thoughts on Schmidt's pic, seriously, one click, thirty seconds is all it will take, then you can tell us, in your words, what is happening there and why???????????????????

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          i am not sure what you folks want ??

                          i cant answer for what that pic represents..... do i like what i see? no. but so what? that does not change the fact that mr. schmidt trains classically and that he is winning.

                          and no, i am not the one between a rock and a hard place... that would be the folks that are showing and that have to choose between doing what is correct and doing what the judges are rewarding at this time..

                          and i dont see how anyone can say that judges are not rewarding high front leg action, a "rounded" outline, and the "wow" factor. so, i would imagine that those that want to stay on top will try to produce what the judges want to see. wasnt there an article by Krya that said that they, as riders, need to do what the judges want?

                          as far as criticizing judges. i dont think anyone is above criticizing if warranted. i have no hero worship. i *do* think that folks deserve respect - but that doesnt mean no criticizing.

                          if you think about how judges are picked and who pays them it makes sense that they would try to please the show organizers and the show organizers want to please the topriders so that they come back again, and everyone wants to please the crowd. the judges do what makes them popular because that is what makes them a hot, wanted commodity - if judges score using the whole range of numbers or score low they get slammed... no one wants to ride under them. - i dont have any direct experience at int'l levels but i would guess it is the same (?) .... an unpopular judge is not going to be asked back. a popular judge is. all of this could be alleviated if there were a system of picking judges that was totally random and if the judges were paid out of a fund. (of course i am guessing how the int'l judges are paid/picked because i donut know - and the above comments are based on what i see/know from the US) )

                          i guess i will have to dig thru my books at some point, and quote where i read that there is a "Red List" and, while i cant remember the why and wherefores, it is basically the Halo effect - a rider HAS to ride in front of judges many many times before they are judged in a manner that allows success. i wish this weren't true...

                          i happen to LOVE dressage. i LOVE watching a good test... it gives me shivers and makes me cry. there is a REASON i ride every day and work with the best coach i could find ( i even moved to work with this person) ...

                          i dont want to see dressage turn into something that it wasnt meant to be.

                          and i have every right to voice my opinion as the next girl. you wont know this because you dont know me.... but i can guarantee you that i dont parrot anyone.... i am a VERY individual person and i spent a lot of time researching, reading and thinking. i have a mind of my own - and i also have no problem changing my mind or admitting if i am wrong.

                          what is ironic is that some here say that there is a party line on the UDBB and that they are not allowed to voice an opinion outside of that.... well... here i am voicing an opinion that is different than the party line here on COTH - and lo and behold - i am being slammed for it. interesting.

                          anyway.... as i wanted to point out classical riders/trainers DO win at the highest levels of our sport.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Why mbm, whatever do you mean? You can't answer Nero's question??? You cannot tell that this classically trained horse does not track up in the trot????
                            dq140

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by sabryant
                              Trying to explain training styles is a bit like trying to explain Aztec math to people who don't understand that two totally different training styles can produce a similar ride. I think that mbm is in denial and doesn't want to believe that Schmidt's horse might go like a RK horse or, better yet, might be a similar style horse to Salinero!
                              no sabyrant, i am not in denial. horses are horses they can only move/respond a given number of ways.... so yes, different things can produce similar results.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #55
                                Originally posted by mbm
                                i am not sure what you folks want ??

                                i cant answer for what that pic represents..... do i like what i see? no. but so what? that does not change the fact that mr. schmidt trains classically and that he is winning.

                                and no, i am not the one between a rock and a hard place... that would be the folks that are showing and that have to choose between doing what is correct and doing what the judges are rewarding at this time..

                                and i dont see how anyone can say that judges are not rewarding high front leg action, a "rounded" outline, and the "wow" factor. so, i would imagine that those that want to stay on top will try to produce what the judges want to see. wasnt there an article by Krya that said that they, as riders, need to do what the judges want?

                                as far as criticizing judges. i dont think anyone is above criticizing if warranted. i have no hero worship. i *do* think that folks deserve respect - but that doesnt mean no criticizing.

                                if you think about how judges are picked and who pays them it makes sense that they would try to please the show organizers and the show organizers want to please the topriders so that they come back again, and everyone wants to please the crowd. the judges do what makes them popular because that is what makes them a hot, wanted commodity - if judges score using the whole range of numbers or score low they get slammed... no one wants to ride under them. - i dont have any direct experience at int'l levels but i would guess it is the same (?) .... an unpopular judge is not going to be asked back. a popular judge is. all of this could be alleviated if there were a system of picking judges that was totally random and if the judges were paid out of a fund. (of course i am guessing how the int'l judges are paid/picked because i donut know - and the above comments are based on what i see/know from the US) )

                                i guess i will have to dig thru my books at some point, and quote where i read that there is a "Red List" and, while i cant remember the why and wherefores, it is basically the Halo effect - a rider HAS to ride in front of judges many many times before they are judged in a manner that allows success. i wish this weren't true...

                                i happen to LOVE dressage. i LOVE watching a good test... it gives me shivers and makes me cry. there is a REASON i ride every day and work with the best coach i could find ( i even moved to work with this person) ...

                                i dont want to see dressage turn into something that it wasnt meant to be.

                                and i have every right to voice my opinion as the next girl. you wont know this because you dont know me.... but i can guarantee you that i dont parrot anyone.... i am a VERY individual person and i spent a lot of time researching, reading and thinking. i have a mind of my own - and i also have no problem changing my mind or admitting if i am wrong.

                                what is ironic is that some here say that there is a party line on the UDBB and that they are not allowed to voice an opinion outside of that.... well... here i am voicing an opinion that is different than the party line here on COTH - and lo and behold - i am being slammed for it. interesting.

                                anyway.... as i wanted to point out classical riders/trainers DO win at the highest levels of our sport.

                                A couple of things,

                                1) because you cannot account for the lack of tracking up in this classically trained horse does bring into question your position on RK and how it "apparently" damages the end product.

                                2) I do not believe Mr Schmidt is actually 'winning', placing highly, SOMETIMES, but not beating a lot of other horses, mostly the rk trained ones in fact. In a full strength field he does not place that highly, Lingen was not full strength.

                                3) IN YOUR OWN words you say that a lot of what you say is not necessarily your original thoughts but what other, more knowledgeable people have said, so don't throw that one back in our faces.

                                4) I'm not suggesting that you hero worship ANY one or a judge, but a bit of respect for their knowledge when they, and even you'd admit this, DO have more experience than you.

                                5) the apparent halo effect????? well where is the proof, its just a theory with little basis, if this halo effect was the case, Ulla Salzgeber would be still winning on her other lesser non-Rusty horses, she's not, Anky would be doing better than mid to low field on Nelson, she's not and Isabelle would have won all the time on Anthony, Satchmo etc etc. She doesn't, I can see proof the halo effect DOESN"T happen just can't see any proof where it DOES, sorry. The 'halo effect' theory I've only ever heard from disgruntled people/riders who didn't beat the person they accuse of having the halo.

                                6) the fact that you DON'T like what you see, your words, with Wansuela Suerte but say its OK because its classical and its winning just astounds me because you lot have been telling us we are crap for that argument when we use it with Anky!!!!

                                7) the rest of your post, well I'm not sure, its wasn't very coherent.

                                But guys this is cruel, mbm is obviously flustered and cannot answer the simple question, we should lay off.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  nero - i am not going to play with you. i tried to answer your questions. clearly not to your liking. oh well.

                                  the only think i want to add is that yes, mr schmidt is winning. at the show that this whole thread was about he was either 1st or 2nd for all the GP classes.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by mbm
                                    nero - i am not going to play with you. i tried to answer your questions. clearly not to your liking. oh well.

                                    the only think i want to add is that yes, mr schmidt is winning. at the show that this whole thread was about he was either 1st or 2nd for all the GP classes.

                                    Duhh- get your facts mbm...you seem to be in the cheering section rather than having an opinion...this thread needs facts and well founded opinions..be prepared to explain...and do it now!

                                    Or...blah,blah, blah., we all know what that means...
                                    "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by mbm
                                      nero - i am not going to play with you. i tried to answer your questions. clearly not to your liking. oh well.

                                      the only think i want to add is that yes, mr schmidt is winning. at the show that this whole thread was about he was either 1st or 2nd for all the GP classes.
                                      he came second in most first in one, yes, that's true BUT as I said this was one show, where the best in the world except Elvis and Nadine were not present, and the rest of my questions just too hard to answer I guess.

                                      I would suggest you don't play with me, its just flustering you more and more. And no, I'm sorry your responses weren't really answers because they didn't address the questions, they deflected and tried to confuse, like an impala running frantically and erratically to try and put off the cheetah.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by nero
                                        he came second in most first in one, yes, that's true BUT as I said this was one show, where the best in the world except Elvis and Nadine were not present, and the rest of my questions just too hard to answer I guess.

                                        I would suggest you don't play with me, its just flustering you more and more. And no, I'm sorry your responses weren't really answers because they didn't address the questions, they deflected and tried to confuse, like an impala running frantically and erratically to try and put off the cheetah.
                                        god you have an high opinion of yourself.

                                        i did answer your questions. you don like/understand my answers. so what?

                                        and no not like a impala.... more like an adult watching a spoiled child pull a temper tantrum

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          I agree some with all of you on both sides.

                                          I do think a halo effect exists to some degree in most every judged sport. Ice skating, dressage what have you. Judges are human. For example I was always an A student. I think sometimes I could slack off a bit and still get that A with certain teachers. They just saw me as an A student even when maybe I wasn't doing my best or as good as someone else. Sometimes it is hard just to judge the performance at hand and this does not exist in a vacuum.

                                          I think Anky is absolutely incredible. I think she has done a fabulous job with some not the best in the world horses for example Painted Black. I don't think his gaits are that great and Anky can pretty much bring the best out of any horse. There are very few people in the world like that. It is a huge gift and skill and I respect it. I would like her a lot more if she weren't with that Sjeff. He really rubs me the wrong way and I hope someday she dumps him (but of course it is none of my business and doesn't affect what a phenomenal rider she is) I don't like the Rolkur pics and I have thought Salinero a bit tense, but as a team they are still incredible and amazing to watch. However she gets it done it is amazing in my opinion. I have also noticed that some of the people who supposably have the classically trained anti Rolkur horses like Bretinna and Wamsuela have horses that do appear a bit more stiff. Why I don't have the sophitication to say, but I have noticed it.

                                          So I think maybe sometimes Anky and Salinero have received scores that were a little high. I thought Lingh should have beat Salinero in the Vegas World cup. I thought his gaits were more pure and it was more correct. (but he uses Rolkur too so go figure) I am no qualified judge though and thought Ankys ride was pretty spectacular too.

                                          Those of you who know a lot about it, what are parallel cannons at the trot? What is the trend in breeding in Holland? It seems like a lot of horses bred specifically for dressage these days don't have the best hind end, engine. I worry with further specialization this will get worse. Again I am no expert but the keuring I went to last year it seemed to me that two of the KWPN mares that got keur did not have hind ends I thought were the best for correct upper level dressage. Amazing in front however.

                                          Comment

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