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CDI Lingen - results disprove theory

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  • #21
    Hey, put me on your ignore list and I will....dissapear.

    What is there to engage? Your mean streak where some posters are concerned? Your idolatry of all things Anky? We get it. You think she rules.
    Its almost like a Princess Di cult. I would bet 10 bucks that you also thought she was **special**.



    • Original Poster

      Originally posted by Karoline
      Hey, put me on your ignore list and I will....dissapear.
      Great idea, thanks for the tip.



      • #23
        Originally posted by nero
        That is exactly my point.
        No, your original point was to try and prove incorrect all past arguements that perhaps some of Anky's marks were a bit high for the work shown. However, the fact that THIS show doesn't demonstrate that tendancy, does not prove past 'halo effect' invalid - because there is a good likelihood that the judges are in fact changing course and NOT judging in a manner similar to what has been seen for the last two years. Or at least THIS PANEL of judges is not judging that way. So, your point - taken on its individual merits - is invalid. IF A is to B and R is to L, that does NOT prove XYZ.


        • #24
          OMG will they ever stop their 'poor Anky needs to be defended against the evil'-game?
          Thank you for taking it down to an easy to comprehend picture eqipoize *LOL*
          Froh zu sein bedarf es wenig...


          • #25

            Another stupid bitchfest.


            • #26
              Egontoast.... I think the folks from TOB are hanging out here now and are trying to inject their sense of "logic". Oh well.... Let's hope TOB is ready for business soon.
              Siegi Belz
              2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
              Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


              • #27
                Originally posted by siegi b.
                Egontoast.... I think the folks from TOB are hanging out here now and are trying to inject their sense of "logic". Oh well.... Let's hope TOB is ready for business soon.
                Just out of curiosity, but isn't Nero one of the 'regulars' around here? As far as my logic, show me where it is corrupt - I am actually a fairly sensible soul and will listen to any intelligent discussion. I may not wind up agreeing with you, but I usually learn something. I simply say that the results of one show don't prove anything about the judging at another show. If that is illogical, please explain. TIA.


                • Original Poster

                  Originally posted by eqipoize
                  Just out of curiosity, but isn't Nero one of the 'regulars' around here? As far as my logic, show me where it is corrupt - I am actually a fairly sensible soul and will listen to any intelligent discussion. I may not wind up agreeing with you, but I usually learn something. I simply say that the results of one show don't prove anything about the judging at another show. If that is illogical, please explain. TIA.
                  To my mind its quite simple, IF people here think , and people here HAVE said it, Anky gets 'Anky points' and wins even when she does not deserve it because of her name and notoriety, then surely when she does not win then perhaps it suggests that she is actually judged on her ride NOT her name. When arguing absolutes, like I have witnessed here and on TOB numerous times, then when one example exists where the absolute is disproved perhaps it bears analaysis and maybe the conclusion would be that she is indeed judged on her rides and there is no great conspiracy amongst judges or blanket incompetentcy, as has been suggested. An 'absolute' argument means there can be NO examples to the contrary. That's all I'm saying. Anyway, when her other horse Nelson repeatedly gets 13th or 14th in shows with mid 60's scores and Krack C is regularly NOT the winner one would suggest that it is not just the results of ONE show that you could draw on to make this conclusion.

                  Yes you could say that a few shows here and there do not prove anything, but to me its more to go on then just a feeling and says that she IS judged fairly - my idea is not simply a suspiscion based on a collective dislike of her training and the assumption that judges see her through rose coloured glasses. Maybe I'm just a glass half full kinda gal!


                  • #29
                    Some more about Lingen



                    • #30
                      i just wanted to say congrats to Mr. Schmidt for being either first or second in all the GP classes - way to go !!!! i *love* his riding ability and i really like forrest gump.


                      • #31
                        I only wish he had more horses 'ready to rumble' Wansuela really doesn't look fresh anymore. I've found her walk to be on the stiff side always but at Lingen I found she looked borderline lame Still such a happy picture but how can the poor girl compare to a horse as fresh and springy as Elvis. Re. Anky-points I think the enormous noise around her and this entire style of riding has lead to judges watching real closely and it has definitely improved the picture in the warmup arenas around here. So all the hightempered discussions have been good for something
                        Froh zu sein bedarf es wenig...


                        • #32

                          Yet again we see the huge action in front with nothing behind in the H Schmidt pictures.. but its perfectly acceptable?.. no one comments when its a German!


                          • #33
                            what motivation would all the international judges have for continuing to pin the same person? why would they do that? i'd like one of the judges to come here and explain why they are being so corrupt and biased, and what's in it for them. how much does anky and sjeff pay them to throw down all their morals and their training and their ethics, and pin this stinking, awful horse and rider? let's find out. i want dollar amounts.

                            let me get this straight. you guys are saying that anky gets a HUGE amount of 'anky points' just for being who she is. she goes in, she rides like crap, and they give her 80 percents, because they as judges suck and are corrupt.

                            ok. that's where we'll start the discussion.

                            because to me, it smacks of some sort of delusional paranoia to single ou tthis one person as being the source of all evil, and attacking anyone who says the LEAST positive thing about her as being some sort of cult devotee (nero).

                            now let's think about who she is. her family had jumpers, not dresssage horses, and she had two older brothers she always struggled to keep up with. she won the national young rider champs of holland on a little hot potato thoroughbred that she trained herself that taught her a lot of very hard lessons, mostly on her own. she took a 2 year old that no one else would give the time of day, worked with an outsider of a coach who was so hard on even this very tough and independent young lady that she at points in time when told she had to score higher to stick with the big boys, said, 'but i just can't, i'm doing all i can now, i can't do any better', and then she DID, and made what was the most unlikely, difficult horse anyone ever laid eyes on, into a winning dressage horse by using a controversial technique she adopted from her outsider trainer.

                            now, normally, this would be made into a hallmark movie, and you'd all watch it sobbing your eyes out. for some reason, though, maybe because she has the temerity to warm up these horses in a position yo udon't like, she is the target of the most unbelievable nastiness.

                            fact is, there IS some advantage, at times, to being a rider and trainer the judges TRUST and have seen before and have confidence in. at the same time, there is a DISADVANTAGE, because many judges are actually very hard on the known combinations, as klimke wrote, as podhajsky wrote, etc.


                            • #34
                              i dont think anyone said that the halo effect was only about avg?

                              regards to Mr schmidt - i dont have time to look at the photos, but i know that his training is classical - he is just paying the bills by giving what the judges like....

                              and fwiw, we always hear about how come if, classical is so good, how come it doenst win? so i thought i would start pointing out that it DOES win.


                              • #35
                                Ok, so which is it

                                regards to Mr schmidt - i dont have time to look at the photos, but i know that his training is classical - he is just paying the bills by giving what the judges like....

                                and fwiw, we always hear about how come if, classical is so good, how come it doenst win? so i thought i would start pointing out that it DOES win.


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by egontoast
                                  Ok, so which is it
                                  my 2 statemebts do not cancel each other out..... i have talked to *many* folks that train one way and ride another for a test..... in fact avg does the same...

                                  so, while i may not agree with it, i understand it.

                                  so..... someone may train classically and show with a more rounded outline - it is a choice that rides have to make. (altho as i said i didnt look at the pic and so am being very general in my comments)


                                  • #37
                                    let me get this straight. you guys are saying that anky gets a HUGE amount of 'anky points' just for being who she is. she goes in, she rides like crap, and they give her 80 percents, because they as judges suck and are corrupt.

                                    ok. that's where we'll start the discussion
                                    OK - lets get this REALLY straight - because your 'straight' is a pretty wiggly line, slc. we are NOT saying that. What has been said is that the judges DO cut Anky some real slack in some instances - giving 6's to serious errors that probably Ought to be 3's, and they also seem to "LIKE" Salerino's style, so he is earning 9's and 10's for piaffes and passage that some see as lacking basic requirements. And some rather Large Pirouettes are still getting 7's or 8's. There have been World record preformances that were only good, Not the best ever in the world! Why? Because the riders Before her really stepped up to the plate and had great rides - even Theo was quoted as saying 'I knew when I saw the scores of the riders before her, that Anky would set a world record'. My question would be WHY would you "Know" that??? Because Anky Must win? Because The judges were scoring really generous? I actually thought the scores for the other riders were pretty accurate - some of the rides that wound up Not being first place were better technically, more artistic, with a greater degree of difficulty, than Salerino's go. So why didn't they win? Why did Theo KNOW she would set a world record? (I am not picking on Theo, I am simply using his quote because it is a clear example of someone 'knowing' that Anky outscores the competition - he knew it Before he saw her ride, or at least that is what he Said!)

                                    So, what people are saying is that for Some reason, and I have theories, but I can't say for sure Why, but for Some Reason, the judges are Very Generous with Anky and Salerino. And I don't know if they were generous or tough on Krack C and Painted Black - I didn't see their preformances. So, maybe the marks they got WERE generous, but the rides were So flawed that even generousity couldn't make them win. I don't know, I didn't see, but it IS a POSSIBILITY. Which simply means that the original post demonstrated flawed logic in an attempt to Disprove a belief that some hold about how judges tend to mark Anky (And MANY others) more generously.

                                    There has been MUCH discussion about the Necessity for American Riders to go to Germany and compete in front of the European judges before the Olympics to get seen. This has been discussed for YEARS. That a complete unknown who shows up in the ring has to scratch and claw for good marks - but after the judges know that you produce quality work, then they are a little more relaxed about giving the 8's and 9's. Heck, it has even been said that going First at the Olympics tends to result in lower marks - because the judges are hesitant to give high scores to the first horses, because someone might come in and Do Better, so they need to leave room at the top. I don't make this stuff up - it is published in Magazines!

                                    So, is it Incomprehensible to some of you that the judges, knowing that Anky is the top winning rider, have an easier time giving her top marks, and a Harder time marking her low? Remember, when a judge DID mark her harshly last year, he wound up in Court???? And SJ tried to have him banned from judging her because he was in legal action with her??? And they threatened to Never Show in Germany again? So, how brave is some less established O judge going to be??? Lots of 'gentleman 6's' perhaps?

                                    Anyway, she is a good rider, she is very accurate. Salerino is a flashy horse, but some of us feel he has serious holes in his training, and that the work he produces is NOT the greatest ever seen in dressage - which is what world record scores would represent, don't you think? And lastly, When people say the judges give Anky points, really, it refers to Anky and Salerino, her A circuit horse, Not her 2nd string (and a fine second string it is). And again, did anyone see the rides? Were they accurately scored? Were there glaring errors? Without seeing the rides, NO ONE can say whether the marks were generous, fair or harsh. No matter WHAT the final placing was. I have had rides that were generously scored, and I still didn't win the class. Sometimes a judge LIKES your horse, and even though he is being a fool, they give good marks everywhere they can, and you look at the test as think "Wow, that was Very Generous!" even if you don't take home the blue! As much experience as you have had, slc, I can't imagine that hasn't happened to you at some time! And Surely you have seen a BNT come into the ring on a new horse, and the horse, though Very Talented, is tense, and spooky and makes numerous mistakes, and STILL the horse gets good marks, and maybe even places in the class, and you think to yourself, "if that had been ME riding, it would have been 50% at best!!!) But the judge 'forgives' the mistakes, KNOWING that that the rider knows better, and doesn't need 'an education'. Come On! You HAVE to have seen that at some point in your life. That doesn't mean the judges are corrupt or suck at what they do. It means they are human, have opinions, and sometimes they are nice to their friends. It also doesn't make it right.


                                    • #38
                                      since i'm so busy i've got to thank you for writing my post for me, and knowing what i think, what experiences i have had, how i feel about them, and helping me so much to agree with you.

                                      it's all very nice, but is, unfortunately, wrong. if you like, you can keep posting what i think and how i see it and what happened to me, and how i feel about the top riders. in fact, if you want, you can get an slc3 login, and just go to town.

                                      i especially like the part where you even know what the judge is thinking and why the rider gets the score that he gets, AND you know how the judge was thinking and why he scored the rider the way he did - you know - the rider i didn't have in my class, at the show i was in, when i didn't feel what you say i felt, and all that.


                                      • #39
                                        What troubles me is the trends we see in dressage today. This rider or that rider just doesn't matter in comparison to the Big Picture. The Welfare of the Hores and the Dignity of the Sport.

                                        A "flashing up" of dressage. That's what the judges seem to want to see right now. They don't care as much about enforcing some of (what I consider to be important) the actual rules. They're perfectly happy to pin horses who don't even have pure gaits, ones whose front ends are are flung so high their back ends can never keep up.

                                        That's the trend.

                                        I believe that respect for the horse in its own grace and beauty is being lost. It's about "winning" and money. Not respect for the horse and certainly not viewing him as a partner, but rather as something to dominate and force.

                                        There is little beauty and harmony left in so many upper level performances.

                                        I wish the UDBB was up right now. I'd love to post a link to a thread which had a famous GP horse today compared to a Saddleseat horse.

                                        The saddleseat horse used its back end better.

                                        Very sad indeed.

                                        While I personally will never endorse or support a rider who I feel doesn't have the horse's best interests at heart---What I call the "Crank and Spank Brigade"---the main issues is the trends of the sport towards flash rather than correctness.

                                        When you're willing to WAIT for the horse until he's READY.....when you care about the HORSE'S WELL BEING more than the money......when you're interested in a PARTNERSHIP rather than a DICTATORSHIP.....THAT is when dressage begins.

                                        The rest is just flashy flat work with tricks.
                                        The two most important days in your life are the day you're born and the day you find out why. Mark Twain


                                        • #40
                                          it is your opinion that that is the trend today. it is not my opinion. and it is not a fact at all that this exists - it is an opinion.

                                          if some self serving person trying to peddle their training services as better than anyone else's, saying that everyone else is just flash, that still doesn't mean that is what is happening. it isn't even necessarily a valid opinion (valid opinions have at least by some stretch of the imagination, some attestation).

                                          in fact, about 35 yrs ago, back in the supposed time that is always cited when people weren't going for just flash and riding saddle seat style, that's exactly the accusation that got tossed around THEN...when people like reiner klimke and the so called great ones ie the much better than today ones were riding. in fact, i can remember reading the same complaint in 'The Horseman's Companion' in an article written in 1928! it's fascinating how decades and decades change...nothing.

                                          what i think is crap is the statement that the judges all just are rewarding flash, like they know so little about what they are doing, and are so stupid.

                                          Last edited by slc2; Jul. 11, 2006, 06:51 PM.