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Tying a horse for a long time

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  • #81
    SADLY TRUE STORY...

    God Bless her. Honestly this is true true true and maybe timely for someone here...

    A friend of mine insisted on really never even training her horses to pick up their feet. Or to lead. Load. Ride. Bathe....etc... She would not use a farrier, as that would be too stressful for her horse to stand there and be expected to hold up their leg. HONESTLY....the length all of this went to is non ending and you probably wouldn't believe me if I told you....She had a heart of gold, this friend, and in her heart & mind, she only had good & the best of intentions....she loved her horses dearly...She valued them, cared for them, and sacrficed financially for them...


    Sadly, yesterday at 7:30 pm, she lost her battle with cancer...She left behind a six year old Friesan/Saddlebred that is barely halter broke, doesn't load/tie/pick up her hooves. Ditto on the yearling Friesan/Saddlebred...and the seven year old arab....She also left behind a Saddlebred mare that was a broodmare before she got her, and did lead/stand tied and for farrier.... So, all of this, to point out to any of you that would think that YOU are fine with your horses' lack of knowledge, think again....our horses may out live us...or our personal situations may change. Don't you owe it to your horses to give them the best education possible, just in case you cannot be their one and only owner????

    Teach your horses everything they need to know to be saleable...and get them registered/branded etc...it increases their value....if you own them for ever, fine, you'll have a well trained animal...and if not...your animal has a brighter future, because you invested in it's education.

    Folks, we are not promised to live past this moment, if you really love you horses, prepare them for a possiblity of a life without you
    . [/COLOR]
    ~*Ride Far*~Ride Well~*~ The Sky's the Limit~
    www.firstgiving.com/christinahyke

    Comment


    • #82
      Originally posted by CanadianGolden
      So now it's cruel to sell a horse? I'd rather my horse be sold to a good home where he can do the kind of work that he enjoys and is capable of, and so I can advance my riding with a suitable horse, than make him repeat the same things over and over because he can't advance and neither can I.

      Most people are not lucky enough to have miles of trails, and it's healthy for a horse to leave the property in a trailer and see a new location. Good for desensitization.

      Our horses spend most of their time being horses, enjoy their work, and have all worked happily well into their 20s. They are not dolls, but they must behave as I tell them to, because I am the one providing food, shelter, a safe place to live, and hoof and vet care. All I require is polite manners in exchange for a life that consist mainly of eating and sleeping. Asking the horse to work for an hour 3-5 days a week doing something he enjoys is not cruel, and neither is asking him to stand quietly and EAT for a few hours.

      I read your last paragraph, and realized, you were saying exactly what I was thinking

      Comment


      • #83
        I'm absolutely speachless. ...I can't imagine owning a horse that can't be tied. It's in noway cruel..

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by Trakehners2000
          God Bless her. Honestly this is true true true and maybe timely for someone here...

          A friend of mine insisted on really never even training her horses to pick up their feet. Or to lead. Load. Ride. Bathe....etc... She would not use a farrier, as that would be too stressful for her horse to stand there and be expected to hold up their leg. HONESTLY....the length all of this went to is non ending and you probably wouldn't believe me if I told you....She had a heart of gold, this friend, and in her heart & mind, she only had good & the best of intentions....she loved her horses dearly...She valued them, cared for them, and sacrficed financially for them...


          Sadly, yesterday at 7:30 pm, she lost her battle with cancer...She left behind a six year old Friesan/Saddlebred that is barely halter broke, doesn't load/tie/pick up her hooves. Ditto on the yearling Friesan/Saddlebred...and the seven year old arab....She also left behind a Saddlebred mare that was a broodmare before she got her, and did lead/stand tied and for farrier.... So, all of this, to point out to any of you that would think that YOU are fine with your horses' lack of knowledge, think again....our horses may out live us...or our personal situations may change. Don't you owe it to your horses to give them the best education possible, just in case you cannot be their one and only owner????

          Teach your horses everything they need to know to be saleable...and get them registered/branded etc...it increases their value....if you own them for ever, fine, you'll have a well trained animal...and if not...your animal has a brighter future, because you invested in it's education.

          Folks, we are not promised to live past this moment, if you really love you horses, prepare them for a possiblity of a life without you
          . [/COLOR]
          Very well said...Everyone should think about what she is saying. If your horse can't even manage to be tied how on earth is it going to feel if it ends up on a feedlot...because it has no manners & thinks its the Paris Hilton of horses Very good advice.

          Comment


          • #85
            This is what is wrong with "Dressage" today.....

            I wont mention names but you have someone who killed two horses, at least one for sure thru her incompetent horsemanship.

            Standing tied is a pretty basic requirement for any horse. Take part of the 70 grand you spent on two horses and get some lessons in horsemanship.

            There are no Stupid horses, only stupid people.

            Then we have someone who pipes up with a really assinine comment, "My horses are Dressage Horses they dont stand tied"???

            Then Carrot lady number three pipes in with her "tying a horse is abuse" comment.

            I can pretty much assure you that whoever said that and whoever agrees with that has NEVER trained a horse in their life.

            Those are the "I bought vs I taught" and thats ok, not everyone has the time or skill to train horses.

            We never called it the worry tree, we call it the patience tree, and YES WE STAY WHERE WE CAN SEE THE HORSE AT ALL TIMES, though often we choose spots where they cant see us.

            But if its any consolation to you, your trainers love you. Your what is known in the horse world as JOB SECURITY. They can keep fixing your horse and you will keep screwing him up ensuring them future income.

            Dressage is to prepare. Be it Military or Court tradition, either way it is to prepare. A Dressage Horse" should be able to do anything the trail horse can do and more. Dressage training is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end.

            I had this argument with someone just recently. Though its not an argument if their part makes no sense. I said there were many great things a lot of "Dressage Trainers"-I use the term very generally-not an attack against Dressage in any way. I love Dressage. I hate Carrot ladies, and I know many great trainers that train horses for Dessage-Back to my point...I told her there were many great methods Dressage people could learn from the Cowboys-Disclalimer. I dont refer to rough training or breaking the horses spirit as Cowboy training. As well as most Cowboys could do well in learning about Dressage.

            A Dressage horse is one that is prepared for battle or any work set before it.

            NOW BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT, ask yourself this question if I put 10 "Trail Horse Names in one hat" and 10 "Dressage" horse names in another hat and your life depending on you making it somewhere and back and you had no idea what you would encounter would you choose a name out of the "Dressage" hat or the "trail horse" hat.

            I have a mare I had given to me, actually I was paid to take her. She was considered dangerous and scheduled to be put down. Sweet enough horse that would sppok violently at her own shadow. Owner "loved" the horse and thought sending her to me might keep this mare alive, as she was scheduled to be put to sleep. A couple of weeks ago I rode her over the creek and thru the woods, down the road, thru the drive thru and then did a nice piaffe while waiting on the light to turn green then an acceptable tranistion into passage as we crossed.

            Warmblood, Saddlebreds. Arabs. Lusitano. Andalusian, QH, Paint. Friesian Crosses you name it. I usually get the "nutty" ones and they are always a learning experience. I get the ones no one else wants to mess with, and I figure the problem horses are the ones that make you have those days where you get closer to being a horseman or trainer.

            I do not consider myself a trainer. Simply a horse lover who sincerely wants to learn about horses.

            First thing to learn about horses.

            Horses are horses, every one an individual and unique, but still a horse. Trail horse, dressage horse, roping horse, hunter. Your horse has no clue what his title is, he is a horse.

            Unless they belong to to a Carrot lady, in which case they enter their barn with a I am a dressage horse name tag so the other horses recognize why they are so unsocialized.

            Second thing to learn about horses is they are not people. You must take your horse on horse terms. He will NEVER take you on Human terms.

            The third thing to learn about horses is there is no such thing as finished training or trained horse. Everytime you get on or around a horse you are either training or untraining them. PERIOD!

            On a final note I will leave you with this question. Some of you are already ready to flame me for speaking what most of you know is probably closer to reality than the "Well I ride dressage so my horses dont have to have BASIC manners and training".

            Now I am not advocating beating a kid or a horse in any way.

            Two parents.

            One who harshly reprimands their child for any infraction no matter how insignificant.

            The other never reprimands their child no matter how sever the infraction.

            Which parent loves theri kid more?

            Comment


            • #86
              Not Cool.

              PoliticallyIncorrect, while I agree with most of what you are saying, that was totally uncool to accuse someone of killing a horse in a tying accident. Also uncool to reference the $ she paid for the horse and say to get horsemanship lessons.

              I do not know the circumstances of the accident(s) but even with no fault or negligence on her part a horse can get killed in a tying accident. Rare though it is, this has happened to great cowboys and people well schooled in horsemanship too. There is always some degree of danger in tying a horse no matter how well trained the horse is and something can go wrong. I do a lot of ground work and training with my horses. I tie my horses. I expect them to behave, but I am cognizant that something still could happen. If something that horrible had happened to me, I might be reluctant to tie a horse again myself. I can't imagine how horrible that must have been. It would be very traumatic and I am sure you would feel a lot of guilt even if it wasn't your fault.

              And I cannot imagine deliberately trying to hurt someone who obviously loves her horses. What do you think you will accomplish by that?

              Comment


              • #87
                shireluver, post 45: "Yes, my horses are left unattended. Now, I don't leave the property with them tied, but I will go do other things on the property while they are tied. Checking on them, if even from a distance every once in a awhile.

                I also want to clarify, they usually are only tied for normal everyday things like grooming, saddling, bathing, etc., but if they pull back or act stupid while standing there, they may have to stay there a little longer. Kind of like standing in the corner."

                To me, it sounds like your horse isn't truly left unattended, not if you're checking on them. Certianly not like the unattended example in post 6.

                When I'm at a show I never leave a horse tied, which is not to say they are always in my sight. They might be on one side of the trailer tied and I am elsewhere on another side. However, I never leave them there unattended especially since I don't own or use breakaway halters. In a worse case, I'd ask a neighboring trailer to keep an eye out if I need to take off.

                A BIG "YES" TO KKJ: "...There is always some degree of danger in tying a horse no matter how well trained the horse is and something can go wrong. I do a lot of ground work and training with my horses. I tie my horses. I expect them to behave, but I am cognizant that something still could happen. "

                Comment


                • #88
                  Not wanting to get into the slugfest, but just wanting to point out that there is more than one way to teach a horse to tie. If someone does not use your own personal favourite method, it does not necessarilly mean that she/he is an idiot. We have used Jennie Loriston Clarke's method on the last 2 we taught. They both tie and trailer well. Does she tie them to a tree for 4 hours. No. Not that there has to be anything wrong with that. There's more than one way to do it.

                  Also, I doubt anyone has said that dressage horses don't need to tie. If they did, they speak only for themselves so please do not generalize even though it undoubtedly pleases those who looove to scorn 'dressage horses' . Oh yes, we know already. Your trail horse is 'better ' than any dressage horse. UhHuh. Where does that get us. My horse is better than your horse.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by PoliticallyIncorrect

                    Dressage is to prepare. Be it Military or Court tradition, either way it is to prepare. A Dressage Horse" should be able to do anything the trail horse can do and more. Dressage training is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end.


                    Second thing to learn about horses is they are not people. You must take your horse on horse terms. He will NEVER take you on Human terms.
                    When it comes to the point of a dressage being a means to an end...I am sooo glad to hear another LIVING person thinks that too.... WHEW.... What a relief.... glad to hear....
                    ~*Ride Far*~Ride Well~*~ The Sky's the Limit~
                    www.firstgiving.com/christinahyke

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      I guess your right, I don't necessarily leave my horse unattended, but neither do I stand there with them or stare at them the whole time

                      I have even been known to tie my horse to the trailer, and walk away to use the restroom, get something to eat, or even chit-chat. Shhh! Don't tell anyone

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Not trying to hurt anyone

                        KKJ- I AM Not out to hurt anyone. Simply open her eyes.

                        Horses are a responsibility and it is our job to teach them to behave in a safe and responsible way, then trust them to be safe and responsible.

                        Too often the carrot ladies want to create a perfect environment.


                        Typical comment out of a Carrot Ladies mouth “Oh don’t do this and can you turn the lights down a bit, open that gate just a bit too and move that car over there please….oh and can you please not wear red shirts to the barn anymore…. I have to give my horse a bath and he doesn’t like those things….

                        After being told to train her horse she replies with….

                        “Oh didn’t you see my saddle? I am a dressage rider and this is a Dressage Horse.”

                        Stop watching Disney Movies and get a grip on Reality !

                        You will never, I REPEAT NEVER find a Grand Prix trainer ever say this. Its always the wannabe riders who either bought their level or are still riding 2-3rd level after 25 years go figure…..

                        You can not create a perfect environment. As soon as you think you have a dog barks, a car goes by and then you have a problem, or in her case two dead horses.

                        My Dressage horse is my trail horse is my trail horse is my Dressage Horse.

                        Also the reference to the money she spent was pertinent in this case.

                        See a lot of people dont have the money for lessons, they do the best they can and sacrifice a lot to be able to enjoy the rewards of owning a horse.

                        ....But if you can spend 70 grand on two horses that are killed, and then go buy another, surely you can spend a little on learning about horses.

                        So I stand by my statements even if they are Politically Incorrect.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Don't any of you anti-tyers ever do any kind of job with your horse? If so, what do you do with it when you get off? Like at a cattle branding which is out in the middle of nowhere. When it is you turn to work on the ground you had better be able to tie your horse since nobody is going to watch it for you. What happens when you camp out overnight in the wild? If you can't use a picket line or tie to a tree or (horror of horrors) hobble your horse you might be in for a bit of a walk come morning.

                          Horses are perfectly capable of standing in basically one place for extended periods of time. They do it all the time in the pasture. And, even when tied, they have some mobility since they can move back and forth. In a proper picket line then can even lay down. Hardly horse abuse.

                          I use a "worry" or "patience" pole on all our young horses. They can pivot around the pole as much as they want but they eventually learn the patience to stand. And I don't stand there watching them the whole time either. I go about my business and check from time to time. They are tied quite short so there is no danger of them getting a foot over the rope or anything like that. Gradually, I increase the duration until they can stand half the day quietly.

                          Cross-ties are another beast entirely in my mind. They do restrict the horse's motion much more than tying with a single rope and are much more likely to make the horse claustrophobic.

                          I also do not understand the purpose of cross-ties. Why can't you groom and tack up tied with a single rope? Your horse won't stand still? Maybe it's time for some tying lessons?

                          Dave

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            I think the difference is that your horses have already been taught what to. I'm sure you've already taught them to give to pressure and to not rear if they feel halter pressure.

                            Some people "train" by just taking a horse, putting the heaviest halter on him they can find, and tying him to a tree or wall for hours (or even days!). They just leave him and he'll "figure it out". In reality these horses end up hurting themselves. If they're tied short enough that they can't get a leg around the rope, they're also not able to totally lower their head: no water or grazing at all.

                            I object to be because it's a training shortcut. It's not that hard to teach a horse these lessons without abandoning them tied. People who do it are relying on the rope to "teach him". It would be like teaching a young horse to like riding in a trailer by chasing him down a chute, slamming the doors shut, and leaving him in the dark trailer all day. Sure it gets the job done but does it teach the right associations?
                            Veterinarians for Equine Welfare

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Politically Incorrect, what is your alt ego? You are too bitter to be new to this bb stuff. Calling people carrot ladies and ripping them for having $ to buy a nice horse is not cool.

                              I am pretty much a can do kind of girl. Pretty much a hands horse person. Shut up and rider don't wimp out or complainer, but I can't imagine this bitterness at what you call Carrot ladies.

                              Cowboys and hands on types have "killed" horses too you know. Do you think there are no excellent horse people who have "killed" a horse? Horses are inherently dangerous and not the smartest of animals. Sometimes accidents happen even to real horsepeople. Plenty of cowboys have hung a horse. Horses get killed on hot walkers or in trailer accidents.

                              I think if you choose to own horses, you are responsible for becoming a horseperson too. I think you need to learn to be safe and have the balls to act safely. However, I cannot just sit here and let you attack someone for an accident that very well may have been in no way her fault. Even if it was a little bit her fault, how cruel to attack someone for that. I guess the politically incorrect love to pour salt in wounds.

                              I hope nothing bad ever happens to you (or to me for that matter) but if it does (God Forbid) I hope people don't treat you as unfairly afterwards.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Sorry - just got to this

                                Originally posted by Equus Caballus
                                In my opinion, this is not a punishment for which the horse needs to make a connection to understand. Think of it like this: If your horse tossed his head histerically well you were riding him, you would do your best to correct the behavior as it happened (just as you would if he misbehaved while tied). But maybe the next day you would ride him with a martingale to prevent him from tossing his head. Does he connect the martingale to the head tossing of yesterday? Probably not, because it is not meant to be a punishment for yesterday, it is meant to be a seperate training experience.
                                NO. If my horse tossed his head hysterically (I assume that's what you meant) I would first ascertain whether there was a physical issue - because that is not normal, and sudden onset constant head tossing indicates either a physical issue or a long standing behavioral issue. A martingale cures neither. Especially if it is a consequence of a weak back or poor fitting saddle or an oncoming abcess.
                                To give you the better analogy, when my horse is on his forehand, I try to make quick, subtle adjustments (like half halts) to ask him to rebalance, followed immediately by a relaxation of requests as a reward. And I don't expect that behavior to change immediately, for two reasons: (1) the strength and musculature you need for self carriage doesn't come overnight and (2) how fast can YOU break a long standing habit just like that?


                                Originally posted by Equuus Cabballas
                                If your horse misbehaves while tied, it is an indication that he has not learned to be tied well enough, just as misbehavior under saddle means that he needs more training there. Tying him longer is not a PUNISHMENT for his earlier behavior. It is simply additional and seperate training to help the earlier behavior disappear. So, no connection needs to be made. Get it?
                                NO. I generally tack up with my horse in cross ties, but sometimes with a single tie. If he misbehaves, the question is: what's the cause? One day a month ago my horse kept tossing his head in the cross ties - very unusual for him. I finally discovered a deer tick in his ear. He was telling me the only way he knew how. If he gets impatient, however, and paws or stamps a foot, that isn't acceptable, but a simple shake of the lead rope with a no gets the message across quite well. He asks if he can leave, I say no, end of discussion.

                                [quote = Equuus Cabballus] Some of you seem to think tying is "cruel". This I don't understand. I can see how it has potential to be cruel, but so does a bit, so do spurs, so does a riding crop... so does just about every training method used. However, tying is not cruel when done properly.[/quote]

                                Just a gentle FYI. The bit, the spur, the dressage whip are aids. Yes, they have the potential to be improperly used. but looking atyour next paragraph...there's simply no way you can convince me what you describe isn't cruel.

                                Originally posted by Equus Cabballus
                                For instance: After I ride, I cool my horse out, loosen his girth, and offer him a drink. Then, I tie him to the wall in our indoor arena for 1-2 hours while I clean stalls, wash buckets, eat dinner, whatever. I never leave the property. He is tied high so he can't get his leg over the rope, but loose enough so that he can lower his head to a comfortable level. He can move around a bit if he wants to, he is standing in the shaded, comfortable arena in soft footing, and when I come get him after a few hours, he is happily dozing. He has NEVER balked going into the arena in anticipation of being tied. He is happy to stand quietly after a long workout, and he learns to stand quietly no matter what. I don't do it every day, but maybe three times a week. What in the world is cruel about this? I have noticed that the horses that I tie for a few hours each week are much more patient and better mannered horses even on days when they haven't been tied. They don't just "seem" quieter because they have "given up". They learn to be patient. Yes, there is a wrong way to tie a horse. But lets also aknowledge that there is a correct and in my opinion nessecary way to use tying as a training tool.
                                What is the point of doing this? I simply can't come up with any reason that anyone would want to do this, and it defies all safety rules.

                                My horse stands quietly UNTIED for the farrier. For however long it takes, usually 2 hours. He will stand quietly for an hour during grooming and tacking up. He will stand while I am braiding his mane. He will stand by the trailer chomping hay when at a schooling show. Would I leave him that way unattended? NEVER. And would I just leave him tied for the hell of it as a supposed training tool? What for? My horse does what I ask without subjecting him to what i consider an unsafe and cruel practice.

                                When we're done, he can go back out in the pasture, move around as he sees fit, visit with buddies, eat grass. That's a reward for him. Standing tied in an aisle for a few hours with nothingt o do - nothing to eat or drink - I simply am at a loss to describe how utterly stupid I think that is.
                                Last edited by DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"; Jul. 10, 2006, 06:51 PM.
                                www.specialhorses.org
                                a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  you missed the point

                                  Originally posted by enjoytheride
                                  And now standing tied causes arthritis? Give me a break.

                                  My horse isn't tied at shows but he stands in one spot in his stall and sleeps for hours. What's the difference if he were tied?
                                  No. Standing tied does not cause arthritis. However, the more common areas of degenerative osteoarthritis e.g., hock, benefit from movement. This is why turnout is better for a horse than being kept in a stall.
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                                  • #97
                                    You know, I grew up in a country where dressage is the norm (along with jumping and hunting) and NH wasn't well known, if at all.

                                    I *still* think every horse should have impeccable ground manners, no matter what they do. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of times when you go to a 1-day schooling show that has no stalls. In addition, the point made about selling the horse and it not having any skills is very valid. YOU may not think it's important, but I'll bet you money you'll get a good quantity that do.

                                    As for the comment about the horse being a *dressage* horse and therefore not being able to be tied for any prolonged period of time, all I can say is; Please. What does one have to do with the other?

                                    Finally, I have a QH but he's destined to become a pretty little dressage pony. You better believe he can do everything and has been put through everything in decrease any spook factor. Strollers? Bring 'em on! Preferably bright yellow just to add to the excitement.

                                    Just my thoughts.

                                    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
                                    DRESSAGE, n.: the passionate pursuit of perfection by the obsessively imperfect

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                                    • #98
                                      Alter ego?

                                      New to this?? lol....Either reply using logic and the laws of debate or put a cork in it...


                                      Never ripped for having the money to buy a cool horse. ripped her for being too cheap to get lessons in handling and horsemanship..


                                      Bitter? Lets see this know it all person who personally had two horse killed doing something that is a basic requirement for any horse know slams people who tie and feels qualified to give advice to others....

                                      I would say she is the bitter one??

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                                      • #99
                                        Well while we are at it...do you train your horse to ground tie? We do and it is invaluable... the horses are taught to stand and not move if placed at a spot or if the rider has is off for any reason.

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                                        • GROUND TYING

                                          Originally posted by clanter
                                          Well while we are at it...do you train your horse to ground tie? We do and it is invaluable... the horses are taught to stand and not move if placed at a spot or if the rider has is off for any reason.
                                          Could you explain how you teach ground tying?
                                          ~*Ride Far*~Ride Well~*~ The Sky's the Limit~
                                          www.firstgiving.com/christinahyke

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