• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

U.S. Rollkur Riders

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Original Poster

    Originally posted by sabryant
    Velvet

    This statement is just sooooooo NOT true when deep or RK is trained correctly. This is one of the main difficulties posting on these threads...minds are made up in Never-ever-land because of radical statements like yours. I think your OP question was answered long ago in this thread when someone said that if an American did train rollkur, they would never admit to it becaue of the shallow knowledge of most Americans about the process of training deep and/or RK.
    Hon, I wasn't talking about rollkur. I was talking about horses going around in a dressage test that are broken at the third, not going with the poll as the highest point.

    I am NOT going to get into the rollkur cage match that is going on out here. Seriously, I think some of the people need to get some new alters. They need to find some wrestling names.

    I prefer sitting at home and watching it on TV, rather than joining the fray or even sitting on the sidelines throwing popcorn (unlike Eggy who loves to throw everything and anything at hand ) , that way I can turn off the TV and stop watching any time I want.
    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

    Comment


    • hi sabryant,

      I remember jammed to the chest and spurred (of course, or the position would not hold) not for a stride or two but the entire training session. I think we could be visualizing/comparing apples to oranges. I hate to go back to reference the videos, that means first I have to find them.... EDITED TO ADD: after reading last Velvet's post now I'm more convinced you and velvet are referencing different things. Duh... It's so hard when one word (rollkur) is used to describe everything BTV.

      Comment


      • here they are- and they are as stated before artfully cut together small snippets of warmup- none lasting longer than 2 minutes max.....many are rewound over and over again....

        This will become apparent if you watch them a couple of times in a row:


        http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ulrikethiel
        "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by sm
          hi sabryant,

          I remember jammed to the chest and spurred (of course, or the position would not hold) not for a stride or two but the entire training session. I think we could be visualizing/comparing apples to oranges. I hate to go back to reference the videos, that means first I have to find them.... EDITED TO ADD: after reading last Velvet's post now I'm more convinced you and velvet are referencing different things. Duh... It's so hard when one word (rollkur) is used to describe everything BTV.

          Hi sm

          I think you are right. I thought she wanted to stay on subject about RK and American's who train it and not about preformances that show a broken neck at the 3rd vertabra, which I do not see when the Rk/deep is trained correctly.

          I did see that video too, and I just cannot see the abuse.
          www.stfrancispetmedals.com

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            I started on the topic of American's who practice rollkur and are doing it in the warm up ring. Purely out of curiosity.

            I moved on to just throwing out that one of the standards in dressage is having a horse who's poll is the highest point. Not a rollkur subject, just a thing that is in the show ring and isn't meeting the defined standards. Usually it's an issue of the rider's hand. This was just a quick aside since the subject of rollkur has been beaten to death out here. And trust me, people, that horse is DEAD. Everyone who is one side of the fence is not about to move because of the arguments out here.

            I wasn't truly trying to change topics, nor was I making a comment on rollkur.

            I do, however, agree that rollkur/hyperflexion is something different than the older school of long and low/deep riding. The language does seem to need to be better defined, especially if people are going to be arguing about it. (Yes, that's another aside. Still not a comment on rollkur, just something I've noticed in the discussions I participated in when we talked about riding deep all those years ago. Seems to be a huge difference between that and what I see in the videos you're all arguing about.)
            "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Velvet
              I started on the topic of American's who practice rollkur and are doing it in the warm up ring. Purely out of curiosity.

              I moved on to just throwing out that one of the standards in dressage is having a horse who's poll is the highest point. Not a rollkur subject, just a thing that is in the show ring and isn't meeting the defined standards. Usually it's an issue of the rider's hand. This was just a quick aside since the subject of rollkur has been beaten to death out here. And trust me, people, that horse is DEAD. Everyone who is one side of the fence is not about to move because of the arguments out here.

              I wasn't truly trying to change topics, nor was I making a comment on rollkur.

              I do, however, agree that rollkur/hyperflexion is something different than the older school of long and low/deep riding. The language does seem to need to be better defined, especially if people are going to be arguing about it. (Yes, that's another aside. Still not a comment on rollkur, just something I've noticed in the discussions I participated in when we talked about riding deep all those years ago. Seems to be a huge difference between that and what I see in the videos you're all arguing about.)
              Very well then. There still seems to be this little problem that no one has yet to answer Nero's question on page six and waiting???
              www.stfrancispetmedals.com

              Comment


              • I think that you all must be on each others' ignore lists, because I have seen these questions answered several times in this thread.


                1) painted black and lingh are trained rollkur and DO overtrack, in fact painted black has one of the best hindend engagements i have seen for along time.
                A horse may easily overtrack but does not necessarily have pure gaits. In fact, it's pretty common for a horse with a huge walk and a great overstep to be lateral, pacy or two beat in the walk. This would be considered an impure or irregular walk. Overtracking does not mean purity of the gaits. Purity of the gaits is the rhythm: a four beat walk, a two beat trot and a three beat canter.

                Engagement does not always impact the purity of the gaits either. Engagement impacts the tempo, the speed of the pattern of the footfalls, but not the rhythm, the pattern of the footfalls.

                When salinero doesn't overtrack much it's all "oh my Anky's training has made his gaits impure'.
                I am not sure where you heard this. Overtracking has nothing to do with purity of the gaits (see above). When I discuss the purity of the gaits, I look at the rhythm of the walk. I look at the association or disassociation of the diagonal pairs in the trot (DAP or diagonal advanced placement, and negative DAP). I look at the rhythm of the canter, knowing the canter can be four beat in two very different ways, and watching for it sometimes to become two beat and lateral.

                when its a horse whose training you embrace you turn a blind eye and go all silent. If you are going to bemoan the disintergration of dressage then you should at least consider ALL the examples of how this is supposedly happening instead of just being selective and trying to explain it away as a result of a training method you don't like !!
                I think that all methods have their own pitfalls. There are definitely some issues with the purity of the gaits when the horses are ridden deep. There are definitely some issues with horses always ridden poll high and never stretched. Many of the things we see that are "wrong" are merely strength issues, such as the swaying side to side in the piaffe shown by both Schmidt's horse and Salinero.

                I hope that answer helps, Nero. If not, or if you have more questions, I am game to try again.

                Backing up to whoever said, "what difference does it make if we train them one way as long as they come out correctly in the show ring?" That opens the doors for some really heinous training methods where the end justifies the means. Are we training to show or showing to train?
                Last edited by Kathy Johnson; Jun. 26, 2006, 06:19 PM.
                Kathy Johnson

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  I'm not seeing a question, I'm seeing a statement. I would guess that's why no one is responding. Seems like they are asking a question they already feel they have an answer to, so in that case it would be rhetorical.
                  "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                  Comment


                  • Excellent posting again Kathy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Kathy Johnson
                      I think that you all must be on each others' ignore lists, because I have seen these questions answered several times in this thread.




                      A horse may easily overtrack but does not necessarily have pure gaits. In fact, it's pretty common for a horse with a huge walk and a great overstep to be lateral, pacy or two beat in the walk. This would be considered an impure or irregular walk. Overtracking does not mean purity of the gaits. Purity of the gaits is the rhythm: a four beat walk, a two beat trot and a three beat canter.

                      I am not sure where you heard this. Overtracking has nothing to do with purity of the gaits (see above). When I discuss the purity of the gaits, I look at the rhythm of the walk. I look at the association or disassociation of the diagonal pairs in the trot (DAP or diagonal advanced placement, and negative DAP). I look at the rhythm of the canter, knowing the canter can be four beat in two very different ways, and watching for it sometimes to become two beat and lateral.



                      I think that all methods have their own pitfalls. There are definitely some issues with the purity of the gaits when the horses are ridden deep. There are definitely some issues with horses always ridden poll high and never stretched. Many of the things we see that are "wrong" are merely strength issues, such as the swaying side to side in the piaffe shown by both Schmidt's horse and Salinero.

                      I hope that answer helps, Nero. If not, or if you have more questions, I am game to try again.

                      Backing up to whoever said, "what difference does it make if we train them one way as long as they come out correctly in the show ring?" That opens the doors for some really heinous training methods where the end justifies the means. Are we training to show or showing to train?
                      KJ
                      I think the thing is that Anky is slammed for RK for all the problems decided by the anti rk side and the classical people are held up to be saints. There are problems on both sides and at least you will admit to it. I just don't see the impure gaits that you see anymore than I do the with the classical people. I think it is a style of horse that is popular for dressage, at the moment, that no matter how you train it will have the same disfavor among the traditionalists. It is the having of the disfavor so one-sided that is the problem.

                      Having been traditionally trained, when I saw a horse extend the trot and the front/hind legs do no match in the stride, it was called impure by traditional standards. In the same way, when I don't see the haunches lower in the transitions from extended trot back to collected trot. Is that a transition at all in the purest sense of the traditions we learned? The things that we were taught in traditional training are not "reality" for the horses that are being trained today. Not the classical trained horses or the RK trained horses. I don't look at it as something lost or as something abused. I like to look at it as progression for a new style of horse. Maybe 20 years from now, the horses will be bred for the ability to be trained more in the traditional codes. But for now, to blame a system of training on a horse's way of going holds vain endeavor to slander when the same style horse trained from the traditional codes goes much the same way.
                      Last edited by sabryant; Jun. 26, 2006, 06:50 PM.
                      www.stfrancispetmedals.com

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        While I'm very flattered to have started a thread with so many replies, I just wish this thing would DIE! DIE! DIE!



                        Can I gleefully stomp on the topic? I think so!
                        "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Velvet
                          While I'm very flattered to have started a thread with so many replies, I just wish this thing would DIE! DIE! DIE!



                          Can I gleefully stomp on the topic? I think so!

                          Why would you want it to die?? Hopefully, we ALL learn from each others posts and, hopefully, at the end of the day when can call each other "matey."
                          www.stfrancispetmedals.com

                          Comment


                          • and i have some ocean front property in iowa to sell you.

                            the definition of 'pure gait' needs work, it does not include sitting or engaging in the transition.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kathy Johnson
                              I think that you all must be on each others' ignore lists, because I have seen these questions answered several times in this thread.




                              A horse may easily overtrack but does not necessarily have pure gaits. In fact, it's pretty common for a horse with a huge walk and a great overstep to be lateral, pacy or two beat in the walk. This would be considered an impure or irregular walk. Overtracking does not mean purity of the gaits. Purity of the gaits is the rhythm: a four beat walk, a two beat trot and a three beat canter.

                              Engagement does not always impact the purity of the gaits either. Engagement impacts the tempo, the speed of the pattern of the footfalls, but not the rhythm, the pattern of the footfalls.

                              I am not sure where you heard this. Overtracking has nothing to do with purity of the gaits (see above). When I discuss the purity of the gaits, I look at the rhythm of the walk. I look at the association or disassociation of the diagonal pairs in the trot (DAP or diagonal advanced placement, and negative DAP). I look at the rhythm of the canter, knowing the canter can be four beat in two very different ways, and watching for it sometimes to become two beat and lateral.



                              I think that all methods have their own pitfalls. There are definitely some issues with the purity of the gaits when the horses are ridden deep. There are definitely some issues with horses always ridden poll high and never stretched. Many of the things we see that are "wrong" are merely strength issues, such as the swaying side to side in the piaffe shown by both Schmidt's horse and Salinero.

                              I hope that answer helps, Nero. If not, or if you have more questions, I am game to try again.

                              Backing up to whoever said, "what difference does it make if we train them one way as long as they come out correctly in the show ring?" That opens the doors for some really heinous training methods where the end justifies the means. Are we training to show or showing to train?
                              1) Right, so if you wouldn't mind, could you please point out EXACTLY what is wrong with PB and Lingh's trot??? I'd be keen to know, they are mighty fine in my book. And more importantly how are the classically trained horses like Brentina and Wansuela's trots BETTER???????????? Afterall you are arguing classical training is superior to rk in terms of training quality and correctness are you not. (even though ANKY IS classical and rk is simply ONE method amongst her arsenal, but you guys don't seem to get that)

                              2) One of the common criticisms of Salinero is that he has impure gaits, evident by the fact he doesn't track up, if you have not heard this before KJ maybe you need to go back and read posts from your anti RK mates, I read it ALL THE TIME. But if you would like to analyse other flaws of Salinero and explore my logic further, 'he doesn't halt because of rk"??? Well last couple of tests of Wansuela, SHE didn't halt either?????????????? 'Piaffe croup high', well sorry I could point to 101 horses that are not trained rk who are croup high. Walk? Well weltall's walk is shite, but he is not trained RK, I've not seen a great walk on a gp for a looong time on a plethora of horses (they all seem to get worse yet Sal's get beter!), but somehow its all rk's fault, how unfair!THAT'S MY POINT, every flaw of Sal's is replicated in NON RK horses, get it?

                              If there are pitfalls with all types of training, why is rk the BAD method and the other not??? So confused by this logic.

                              Thanks for responding to the question KJ, I don't believe it has been answered effectively though.

                              And for whoever said I don't see the question, go back and read post on page six, it obviously a question, others have seen it and responded.

                              Comment


                              • Sabryant,

                                I think the thing is that Anky is slammed for RK for all the problems decided by the anti rk side and the classical people are held up to be saints.
                                It seems human nature to demonize and deify. And it also seems to go both ways. The rk side holds the classicists up as "fanatics" and "PETA troublemakers" while deifying Anky. Painful and unrealistic, I agree.

                                I think it is a style of horse that is popular for dressage, at the moment, that no matter how you train it will have the same disfavor among the traditionalists.
                                This is interesting, and I have heard this argument before. It bears thinking about. I think it is hard for some of the traditionalists to see the ends of rollkur without seeing the means. For years, they were warned against poll too low, or BTV or pulling the head around by classical instructors and in text after text. To me, what is fascinating about rollkur is the rider's ability to get the horses poll back up and to show them as correctly as they do.

                                Having been traditionally trained, when I saw a horse extend the trot and the front/hind legs do no match in the stride, it was called impure by traditional standards. In the same way, when I don't see the haunches lower in the transitions from extended trot back to collected trot. Is that a transition at all in the purest sense of the traditions we learned?
                                Exactly.

                                The things that we were taught in traditional training are not "reality" for the horses that are being trained today. Not the classical trained horses or the RK trained horses.
                                That's the argument. The horses are being trained for competition rather than the ultimate aim of the airs. So the piaffe can be more horizontal, etc. To me, the issue is the hypocrisy, the difference between what the rules say and what the judges reward. The scores don't always reflect an adherence to the FEI rules.

                                But, do you think it is the fault of the type of horses, the fault of the judges, the fault of the rules or some combination? In other words, if the top riders were zinged in the scores everytime the horses went BTV or poll low the way I used to be zinged 20 years ago, do you think the scores would be so high? Do you think the same winners would be on top? Would the horses be moving better or worse? Why can't the classical principles be a reality?

                                Maybe 20 years from now, the horses will be bred for the ability to be trained more in the traditional codes.
                                They say this method is cyclic, comes and goes about every 20 years.

                                But for now, to blame a system of training on a horse's way of going holds vain endeavor to slander when the same style horse trained from the traditional codes goes much the same way.
                                I do believe there are intrinsic differences in some of the ways the horses go when trained traditionally and trained with rollkur. The pedestalling piaffe is one. The four beat canter pirouette is another. The four beat trot is another. I suspect the prevalance of hind leg/front legs not matching in trot extensions is another, although like you I see that one from just about everybody when they really go for it and their horse doesn't. On the plus side, I have a gut feeling that rollkur really improves the passage on some of these horses. I will investigate that more.

                                It's important for riders to know that when the neck is shortened, the balance of the horse changes and this impacts the purity of the gaits. By some trick of magic, Anky and other great rollkur riders are (usually) able to bring the poll back up and lengthen the neck to show. Amazing.
                                Kathy Johnson

                                Comment


                                • none of these problems are particular to rollkur horses, especially the pedestal piaffe. nor have i found that these problems are even typical or general with rollkur horses.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by slc2
                                    and i have some ocean front property in iowa to sell you.

                                    the definition of 'pure gait' needs work, it does not include sitting or engaging in the transition.

                                    Hey slc

                                    I wouldn't give you but a couple dollars for that property!

                                    I don't think I said gaits. Though this has been implied many times in the anti-rk posters post. I meant, in the pureness of traditional dressage/not gaits.
                                    www.stfrancispetmedals.com

                                    Comment


                                    • KJ

                                      I, honestly, believe it is the new style horse. I remember seeing one of this type horse come into this country years ago. He was four years old and he had the walk of a giraffe. I followed this horse (as was around my area for shows) for awhile and he never did very well, because the gal riding him could never get the waaaay uphill balance corrected. Rembrandt and Gigolo didn't have those piaffe on the pedestal look but they were critisized for their lack of tradition. I loved to watch their p/p tours because there were no disturbances in the transitions into/out of. It was beautiful to me, tradition or no tradition. Anky's/Sal's is beautiful too because of the same reason. I love watching this style horse. It looks effortless and that is the part I like more than tradition. I can let go of being stuck in the traditions to watch these brilliant horses work. I still know what the traditions are...it isn't hurting anything except for the attitudes of some of the posters on this forum. I gave the reasons why I think the RK riders can put their horse's faces wherever they want them at any given time earlier in this thread. I think NERO still makes great points that have not been answered in her last post. I agree with her that Anky is classical in very many ways.
                                      www.stfrancispetmedals.com

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        DIE! DIE! DIE!

                                        I'm still trying, but this seems like some sort of zombie, or Frankenstein's monster. It just won't die.

                                        No, this thread is not useful. Not anymore. It's been hijacked back into the rollkur slamming and bashing. As I said, it's now a cage match. It's not only oh so very boring, but it's pointless. No one will agree. Nor do they agree to disagree. :yawn:

                                        Maybe a firehose would help.

                                        I'll just keep screaming for a while. Die, thread, die! *pant*

                                        Oy, this is a hard one to kill. It just doesn't know WHEN to give up the ghost, does it?

                                        I honestly wouldn't mind the thread having a new life, but this one doesn't seem to be a life. It seems to be revisiting a subject that makes people chase their tails or bash their heads on the wall so they can say how much better they feel when they stop and just have a few brick marks on their forehead.

                                        Seriously, I'm trying to do you all a favor.

                                        Die! Die! Die!
                                        "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X