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U.S. Rollkur Riders

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  • #81
    Good postings Kathy Johnson.......

    appalling means causing consternation or dismay

    Abuse means the willful infliction of injury, unreasonable confinement, restraint or intimidation, with resulting physical harm, pain or mental anguish

    Comment


    • #82
      Originally posted by Sabine
      her name is Ulrike Thiel and she is a bit manipulating - to say the least...actually she takes the medium FILM and uses it to her advantage to the utmost degree- making some of the hinterland folks wonder what the hell is going on...well what's going on is a well edited video strip that smoothly repeats the same very short minutes again and again...she didn't have enough video to make a case for it - so she had to doctor it...and that she did quite well.
      It takes about 5 watching sessions to disseminate..so don't feel bad.

      proves the point though that someones has some major vendetta going on here...eh??? I do not want to be involved in that...juck!

      Maybe we should put this in the OTHER thread Velvet provided (conspiracy theories of RK/Anky)

      Seriously though, maybe Velvet was just trying to clarify a definition of RK for her thread (as opposed to deep)
      Using the Thiel video as an example as it were?
      So often these discussions get off track because some start to talk about deep training as opposed to RK/EXTREME Deep w/lateral flexions

      Sabine, just a question from a "hinterland folk"
      Are you saying that the RK training as in the Thiel video DOES NOT EXIST?

      I am not asking whether the Thiel video was "doctored"...just is it a representation of RK/Extreme Deep method?

      Also, IF the Thiel video WAS doctored/misrepresented wouldn't there be a big lawsuit in the wings????

      Comment


      • #83
        Sabine - wenn ich diese Argumente so lese, dann kommt es mir vor als ob manche von diesen Leuten sich wie ein Bulldog in diese Sache verbissen haben und einfach nicht mehr loslassen koennen.

        On the other hand, we have to thank Thomas for his generosity in sharing the English lesson with us, and Claire for her never-tiring efforts in trying to keep the RK subject alive.

        This would indeed be a very dull forum without the likes of you.
        Siegi Belz
        www.stalleuropa.com
        2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
        Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by siegi b.
          On the other hand, we have to thank Thomas for his generosity in sharing the English lesson with us, .
          Immer wenn Sie eine englische Lektion wünschen, bitten Sie einfach und ich bin glücklich zu verbinden. Möglicherweise würden einige Lektionen in den Weise und in der guten Anmut nicht amiss auch nicht gehen

          Comment


          • #85
            Quote by Thomas 1 "Möglicherweise würden einige Lektionen in den Weise und in der guten Anmut nicht amiss auch nicht gehen." ?????

            Maybe you should stick with the English lessons?
            Siegi Belz
            www.stalleuropa.com
            2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
            Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

            Comment


            • #86
              wenn ich diese Argumente so lese, dann kommt es mir vor als ob manche von diesen Leuten sich wie ein Bulldog in diese Sache verbissen haben und einfach nicht mehr loslassen koennen
              When I read these arguments, it occurs to me that some people are like a bulldog which has bitten and cannot let go.

              Originally posted by Thomas_1
              Immer wenn Sie eine englische Lektion wünschen, bitten Sie einfach und ich bin glücklich zu verbinden. Möglicherweise würden einige Lektionen in den Weise und in der guten Anmut nicht amiss auch nicht gehen
              Whenever you want an English lesson, simply ask and I will happily oblige. Possibly the lessons in wisdom and grace will not go astray.

              OK, Thom and Siegi? In some cultures it is considered rude to speak in a foreign language that most would not understand. Admittedly, my translation is very bad, but you can provide the proper meaning of your words in english? because the way I'm reading it in both languages, it sounds sarcastic.

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by claire

                Sabine, just a question from a "hinterland folk"
                Are you saying that the RK training as in the Thiel video DOES NOT EXIST?

                I am not asking whether the Thiel video was "doctored"...just is it a representation of RK/Extreme Deep method?

                Also, IF the Thiel video WAS doctored/misrepresented wouldn't there be a big lawsuit in the wings????
                All I am saying is that these are strips of video that are maybe 2 max 3 minutes long and they are played over and over- giving you the impression that this is a very LONG ride without break, reward or relief for the horse.
                I am not involved in the details to know if and why and that there is anything going on between Thiel and SJ- but I would not be surprised if there was.

                And therefore I don't believe this is an accurate representation of how RK is trained or applied. And therefore I am highly skeptical.
                "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                Comment


                • #88
                  Research regarding use of neck in upper level balance

                  http://cvm.msu.edu/Dressage/Upload/C...SDF_July03.pdf

                  This study shows that collection is not achieved simply by lowering the
                  haunches relative to the forehand; it also requires active elevation of the
                  forehand through the front limbs’ pushing harder against the ground.

                  Some good information on the transfer of the center of gravity and the use of the horse front end, including head and neck.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    The plot thickens. CAn we have a link to the doctored video? Thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      I could not understand most of the lines, whorls and circles in some of those videos. I needed a legend to get much out out of that, but then I usually need a legend, map, translator or dictionary.

                      I expect that if any one of us had videos made of our warm-ups and picked through them frame by frame, we would see similar reactions by the horse whether the poll is up or deep.
                      I know if we picked through my videos frame by frame, we would be afraid, very afraid. I agree that it is no one is always perfect. But, you are going to see/feel differences when the poll is up or when the poll is deep. They are going to be fairly dramatic. The more the poll is low or the horse is BTV, the more dramatic the differences.

                      For instance, when I school piaffe and try to keep the horse in slightly in front of the vertical, my issues are going to be that the horse creeps forward and gets a little shuffly. He is NOT going to step backward and he is NOT going to pedestal, leaning over the shoulder. He is going not going to have a flat or longitudinal piaffe. He is going to to be more uphill, with more sit. If he sits too much, he might levade, something I haven't seen the rollkur horses do.

                      Here are the FEI rules for piaffe: In principle the height of the toe of the raised foreleg should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other foreleg. The toe of the raised hind leg should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other hind leg.

                      Here are some pictures that may break every copyright infringement law in the world. In the first set, you can see horses in piaffe poll low, moderately behind the vertical to greatly behind the vertical. In all cases, the front foot that is in the suspension phase is not higher than the hind foot that is up. It is a longitudinal piaffe, with little sit. This is not classically correct nor does it adhere to the FEI rules. Sometimes the hind foot is even higher than the front foot. That is just wrong (I have an extreme example, but can post it later). The horses are on a pedestal, some more than others, with the front stance leg reaching backward. That is also incorrect. The front stance leg should be perpendicular to the ground.

                      In the second set of pictures, the horses are ridden in piaffe slightly in front of, to well in front of the vertical. The hind feet and the front feet are where they should be. The front stance leg is perpendicular to the ground; the horses are not on a pedestal.

                      http://www.kathyjohnsondressage.com/piaffeset1.jpg

                      http://www.kathyjohnsondressage.com/piaffeset2.jpg


                      When the neck is shortened, the balance of the horse changes. This impacts the purity of the gaits.

                      I haven't studied it enough, but I have a sneaking suspicion that rollkur may really help the passage on some horses. It makes sense--longitudinal balance, and the back really up.
                      Last edited by Kathy Johnson; Jun. 25, 2006, 04:59 PM.
                      Kathy Johnson

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by Kathy Johnson
                        Anytime you attack the person, not the issue, that is an ad hominem argument, a logical fallacy.
                        Too true Kathy!!!

                        Thank You for your interesting post...well thought out and written as usual!

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by sabryant
                          Sorry Touchstone, I wouldn't, personally, go by that symposium for anything! A horse, all of a sudden, put in that position would most likely have problems adjusting to the balance. A horse that has been worked slowly to that postition has no trouble with the balance. My eye is farily well trained and I don't see any gait impurities in the videos that I have viewed so far. Some horses come out of the womb unable to track up. If you want to see some impure gaits look at the Olympic ride of KB's p/p tour, and then come back and tell me about impure gaits.
                          Whether you take anything from the symposium as educational is up to you. It was one example.

                          I don't believe I said the measurement for a pure trot has to do with overtracking. I would never say that. You can have horses overtracking by 24 inches and still have an impure trot. And conversely, you can have a horse that doesn't track up and the trot is still pure. Perhaps that's part of the problem -- some people don't really understand what is purity in gaits?
                          "Dreams are the touchstone of our characters." Henry David Thoreau
                          Touchstone Farm
                          www.bytouchstonefarm.com

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Ifway it'sway otnay ootay uderay Iway illway anslatetray orfay ouyay ethay oldway astersmay intoway igpay atinlay.

                            Ideray ouryay orsehay aightstray andway orwardfay!

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Originally posted by siegi b.
                              Sabine - wenn ich diese Argumente so lese, dann kommt es mir vor als ob manche von diesen Leuten sich wie ein Bulldog in diese Sache verbissen haben und einfach nicht mehr loslassen koennen.

                              On the other hand, we have to thank Thomas for his generosity in sharing the English lesson with us, and Claire for her never-tiring efforts in trying to keep the RK subject alive.

                              This would indeed be a very dull forum without the likes of you.

                              Well at least you pass my cursory German test- very correctly written...not so Mr Thomas- he should stick to English- his German is majorly rusty and bumpy...
                              "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Here are the FEI rules for piaffe: In principle the height of the toe of the raised foreleg should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other foreleg. The toe of the raised hind leg should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other hind leg.
                                Why is it so detrimental to the horse if you don't exactly match the rulebook's criteria while training? Perhaps the FEI should supply more of a 'guideline' book instead of a 'rulebook' e.g., the height of the toe of the raised foreleg should come someplace above the fetlock and below the knee.' Or, 'the pole should be the highest point, give or take an inch.' Then people wouldn't get their breeches in such a bunch when someone is not perfectly performing to their expectations. I strongly believe that not all horses were cut from the same mold and to expect all horses conform exactly to one precisely spelled out rule is difficult.

                                If deep riding helps Anky and her imitators, so what? If you don't think it helps, but it in fact hurts, then what? The horse is no longer showable and permanently retired out to a life of trail riding or eating grass? Are these 'hurt' horses being sold per lb?

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  In response to the links that Kathy Johnson posted:
                                  What a great photo comparison Kathy Johnson!

                                  The first set of horses give the impression of front heavy teeter-totters from poll to tail with the front legs and withers as the fulcrum. Because the heavy weight of the heads and necks are hanging downward off the front, it appears as though their heads and necks are working as levers and actually lightening the haunches and lifting them upward, giving the horses an appearance of tippy-toeing behind. Even in the photographs where the haunches are somewhat more bent, they don’t appear to be carrying a significant amount of weight behind.

                                  In striking contrast, in the second set of photographs, it is clear that the forehands are actually being lifted and that the lifting is being produced by generous engagement of the haunches. The horses’ croups are actually lowering to the ground instead of the hind hooves merely being lifted up toward the croup. The muscles of the horses’ hindquarters and backs are working to lift their necks and forehands and because of this, the horses are carrying their heads and necks stretched up and balanced over their elevated shoulders and the lowered haunches can carry the weight efficiently.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    "The muscles of the horses’ hindquarters and backs are working to lift their necks and forehands and because of this, the horses are carrying their heads and necks stretched up and balanced over their elevated shoulders and the lowered haunches can carry the weight efficiently."

                                    yes, and if you read the link I posted, the front limbs, abdomen muscles and "sling" muscles we have discussed in the bridging the back thread, are also working much harder to lift the forehand and shift the balance center back.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by nero
                                      in relation to this why then can you crowd NEVER answer the following;

                                      1) painted black and lingh are trained rollkur and DO overtrack, in fact painted black has one of the best hindend engagements i have seen for along time.

                                      2) wansuela suerte DOES NOT overtrack in ext trot, in fact, she's worse than salinero. Why is that? she's trained classically with no rk. The same with Brentina.

                                      When salinero doesn't overtrack much it's all "oh my Anky's training has made his gaits impure'. when its a horse whose training you embrace you turn a blind eye and go all silent. If you are going to bemoan the disintergration of dressage then you should at least consider ALL the examples of how this is supposedly happening instead of just being selective and trying to explain it away as a result of a training method you don't like !!
                                      How come no one wants to, or can, answer my question?????

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Very good Question Nero...me thinks that it's painful to answer. It is not in line with the partyline politics...it does not fulfill the argument the anti-group is trying make so desparately.

                                        At least we are all honest enough around here to agree that Anky's horses are not showing signs of severe abuse, broken spririts and crazed minds.
                                        However I think it is time to acknowledge that a good GP horse can be made of lots of different fabrics. And just like Tonja and KJ are getting into a love fest about the minute details of the correct Piaffe- *and I do admire the amount of detail and analysis they are willing to invest on this* I do believe that every horse is an individual and that horses vary vastly in the way they can be best trained and brought along. And of all of those only a very few make it to the top and show the tencacity to stay at the top and improve.

                                        I think PB and Lingh have great trots- and superb hind ends...however when you add up everything Sal still beats them....
                                        I think Brentina and Wansuela Suerte do not have great hindends- their croups seem a tad stiffer and do not lower as easily- they have been trained with a training system that does not overemphasize elasticity- it emphases harmony- a request and a willing response from the horse.
                                        Anky and RK does push the envelope- the envelope of elasticity, and yes at times the gaits look a tad unrythmic- but it is like when you watch the warmup of a topnotch Baseball pitcher...in order to get maximum strength and rotation out of the prized arm- he will 'overreach' in the warmup- to make the extreme bearable and the regular seem like nothing....

                                        There is a member here- Belambi - who did pro-vaulting. He agreed with the fact that overstretching the body's exercises and boundaries makes the actual test like a cake walk.

                                        I think some of that theory is behind RK- expressed in maximum gymnastical training.
                                        "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Sabine
                                          Very good Question Nero...me thinks that it's painful to answer. It is not in line with the partyline politics...it does not fulfill the argument the anti-group is trying make so desparately.

                                          At least we are all honest enough around here to agree that Anky's horses are not showing signs of severe abuse, broken spririts and crazed minds.
                                          However I think it is time to acknowledge that a good GP horse can be made of lots of different fabrics. And just like Tonja and KJ are getting into a love fest about the minute details of the correct Piaffe- *and I do admire the amount of detail and analysis they are willing to invest on this* I do believe that every horse is an individual and that horses vary vastly in the way they can be best trained and brought along. And of all of those only a very few make it to the top and show the tencacity to stay at the top and improve.

                                          I think PB and Lingh have great trots- and superb hind ends...however when you add up everything Sal still beats them....
                                          I think Brentina and Wansuela Suerte do not have great hindends- their croups seem a tad stiffer and do not lower as easily- they have been trained with a training system that does not overemphasize elasticity- it emphases harmony- a request and a willing response from the horse.
                                          Anky and RK does push the envelope- the envelope of elasticity, and yes at times the gaits look a tad unrythmic- but it is like when you watch the warmup of a topnotch Baseball pitcher...in order to get maximum strength and rotation out of the prized arm- he will 'overreach' in the warmup- to make the extreme bearable and the regular seem like nothing....

                                          There is a member here- Belambi - who did pro-vaulting. He agreed with the fact that overstretching the body's exercises and boundaries makes the actual test like a cake walk.

                                          I think some of that theory is behind RK- expressed in maximum gymnastical training.
                                          GOOD POINTS.

                                          Until these anomalies in the anti-camp's arguments can be addressed I just think their arguments revolving around what rk does to the final product, i.e supposed gait issues etc, are obviously based on an irrational dislike of the method and not actually any logical, educated argument, and I will treat these arguments like the BS they are.

                                          Comment

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