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*pics added to OP*an opinion from both sides of the warmblood vs arab discussion

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  • #61
    well look at you gucci cowgirl. i didn't know you were such a beehotch. goes like stink, i don't agree with your critique, which just sounds like picking, you totally missed the fundamental issues of the pictures. there are 4 times you should run the other way. one. when someone is having trouble with their kid misbehaving in a public place. two. when someone is havint trouble with their dog in a public place. three, when someone is loading a horse and it won't get on. four, when someone proudly posts pictures of them riding on a bulletin board.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by stuge

      People that breed warmbloods will say that only Hanoverians, Traks, Oldenburgs, etc are warmbloods. I don't think it takes away from these breeds to call draft crosses warmbloods as well so I don't understand why some people seem to take it personally. Obviously, the Warmblood breeds have had years of selective and strict breeding and in general makes for a superiour sporthorse.
      You just answered your own question.

      Originally posted by stuge

      Regarding the AWS, I thought they had inspections? Do they mean anything? It would be nice if they got there act together and started selective registration.
      What I meant by "take anything" was any old breed of horse or pony. I imagine they at least look at the beasts. At least I hope so.
      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

      Comment


      • #63
        he doesnt have his tongue over the bit, he is licking his lips, which is a bad habit created by twisted wire snaffles and bicycle chains that he wore at the arab barns.
        but the riders in the arab barns smile more than the riders of wbs. I think I read that here somewhere.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by egontoast
          but the riders in the arab barns smile more than the riders of wbs. I think I read that here somewhere.
          Yabbut some of us are riding in french links, too.
          "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

          ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

          Comment


          • #65
            Hmmmmmmm...Thank you for the Warmblood explaination. It may sound that in theory a Perch/Arab cross would be a WB, but if it is determined by selective breeding, I can't and won't argue with that. In fact, I think the selective breeding is def the way to go. (watching my Perch/Arab dreams fly out the window...)

            And I have to agree w/the riding critique. Not the opinions of the pictures themselves (I don't have the knowlege to make any judgements) But that when you put pic's on here, they WILL be critiqued. A lot of these ppl are trainers, etc...it's in their nature to do so. Some people are pretty blunt about what they say. I once put a pic of a Morgan on here as a possible Dressage prospect, and someone flat out said "I don't like him".

            I'm glad this didn't turn into a "my breed is better than yours", because our horses..if ever they met would probably all get along just fine together.

            By the way...you have some VERY pretty horses!!!!
            Last edited by alysheba; Jun. 21, 2006, 10:41 PM.
            I've got the 3 things men want. I'm hot, and I'm smart!

            -The 6th Member Of The Bareback Riders Clique-

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            • #66
              <exactly when did I ask for a riding critique? >

              When you posted pictures.

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              • Original Poster

                #67
                this is hilarious. does that mean that it is physically impossible for some people to keep their comments to themselves when what they are commenting on is irrelevant and in no way contributing to a healthy discussion about the TOPIC presented?
                Nothing worth having comes easily.

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                • #68
                  Good grief,cowgirl. After nearly 5 years and 3,000+ posts, you just noticed that threads don't always stay ON TOPIC???

                  So sorry for my comments. I'll go back and edit it to say "oooooh!!! ahhhh!!!!"

                  I think for most people there is a distinction between a warmblood as a type and a Warmblood as a breed.
                  I agree. If someone says her horse is a warmblood type, I think "big mutt." If someone says her horse is a warmblood, I think "big."
                  __________________________
                  "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                  the best day in ten years,
                  you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

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                  • #69
                    do your research before you attack someone's riding. I would never ask for a riding critique on an internet forum. For me forums are for discussions. I have a trainer, thank you. I would appreciate it if you could keep those comments to yourself, as you are not my trainer, and I would bet a hundred million dollars you couldnt hold a candle to mine

                    Not attacking or making critiques. Actually I like both horses & don't see why they can't be "dressage" horses should anyone be interested. My Arab started out life as a reining prospect, then was tried as a park horse, then came to me after a year or two in dressage. Most riders around here don't go much beyond 1st level and I'd be willing to bet that both horses could be competitive at the lower levels. I am curious as to who your trainer is if you don't mind.....but if you do I certainly understand.
                    Ranch of Last Resort

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl
                      this is hilarious. does that mean that it is physically impossible for some people to keep their comments to themselves when what they are commenting on is irrelevant and in no way contributing to a healthy discussion about the TOPIC presented?
                      Its not that you don't have a good point, its just that it always happens when someone posts pic's. Most of the time the ppl arent being mean, and lots of times their comments can be helpful. I do understand where you are coming from though. Maybe add a "Please dont critique" clause to your picture posts.
                      I've got the 3 things men want. I'm hot, and I'm smart!

                      -The 6th Member Of The Bareback Riders Clique-

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        i am not normally like that- posting on piccys -- and being off-- or as you pick on -- wasnt -- any breed to me is as good as the next--

                        and no one breeds better than another -- its how you show it off
                        that makes it better than next one standing next to you


                        i like all breed and types - and crosses..

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Gucci Cowgirl, It wasn't the pictures that got me in critique mode, it was the comments or rather assertions that went along with them. You said that the Arabs were "easier to get through" and "going forward and into the contact" nicely. The pictures show rather clearly that neither of these are true. I don't doubt that they have made a lot of progress or that you will continue to do so with them, but your assertions are what I took issue with.

                          By the way, my 17 hand KWPN warmblood that does not have TB or Arab anywhere near up close is super easy to get through, sensitive, forward into the contact etc. She was going a hell of a lot better than those arabs after a month under saddle. Now I realize they were trained in a non dressage (dare I say "bad" way) and that is much harder to undo than doing it correctly from the get go. However, I take issue with the assertion that "arabs are easier to get through" Those pictures do not support that claim at all.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job.

                            High, short croups, hind legs out behind, swan neck that can curl easily and avoid contact. Oh, but their necks look so beautifully arched that they can deceive....

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by alysheba
                              Also...and if I am wrong, plz don't chastize me..but can't a warmblood be half-arab?? Isn't a "Warmblood" breeding a "hot" breed to a "cold" one? So wouldnt say...a Percheon/Arab be a warmblood?

                              I always thought that would be SUCH a pretty combination...

                              I also want to say I am impressed that there are so many Arab fans in here!!!

                              Can anyone remember the name of that little arab stallion who competes at the Grand Prix level that was bought out of a kill pen for $220? I can't remember his name..
                              A hot blood, cold blood cross would be a warmblood NOT a Warmblood.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by WBLover
                                Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job.

                                High, short croups, hind legs out behind, swan neck that can curl easily and avoid contact. Oh, but their necks look so beautifully arched that they can deceive....
                                I'd say there were more exceptions than rule, here.
                                The problem is, you never see the ones that have consistently been bred for things other than the halter ring, because their owners aren't paying for multiple page spreads and PR.
                                They're out riding the beasts.
                                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  sometimes it's a 'lovely combination' and sometimes it's not.

                                  a half arab half wb can't always be registered in the warmblood registry. it depends on the status of the arab parent and which registry one is referring to.

                                  there is not enough consistency in 'Arabs' to judge them as a whole all the time. One can make some general observations, but always keep in midn they may not hold.

                                  More problematic is the training many of them get, which tends to make any 'typical' conformation faults perform worse and not get remediated.

                                  and some have weak hocks that twist and don't engage well even at a walk. Some have very exaggerated conformation that causes them to be 'inverted', or drop the back and push the hind quarters out behind them; some lack suppleness in the hind quarters and their hocks wind up 'working out' behind them without a swing to the hindquarter or a forward reach to the hind leg, instead, the hind legs wind up out behind the horse with the hind legs looking like they are 'tied together at the hock'. the weakness in the back and hind quarter 'work together' to cause an overall problem with the whole topline of the horse.

                                  an additional problem is the high head carriage. if present, that requires a very clever rider to get true collection instead of a kind of false carriage that LOOKS like collection to a novice, but isn't. some arabs are bred and selected for a type of temperament that just isn't useful in a working horse of any type, too. i've had arabian breeders brag, 'oh my horses couldn't POSSIBLY be used for dressage, they're far too nervous for that'. um.

                                  in addition, the gaits of some are not the best for dressage. there's a very high proportion of 'lateral' or pacey canters, and of 'trappy' trots that go up and down but not forward. pacey walks are common too, though it's very hard to separate years of bad training from what their natural gaits are.

                                  at the same time, though, there are so many arabians, just like all the other domestic breeds, that are 'backyard bred' by people who have an adored pet that should never be bred, and have extremely poor conformation for any riding sport. these are very common and not the ideal of the breed.

                                  i've also seen arabians with absolutely ideal conformation and gaits for dressage, that received early training for the kind of 'saddle seat' style of riding so popular in the arab rings, and despite perfect conformation, the horses could never be taught to take a confident steady contact with the bit or be redone from that training,.

                                  i think the best arabian i ever saw in dressage was an absolutely gorgeous russian bred gelding my friend had. the horse didn't have a nervous bone in his body, and was the steadiest, most reliable animal, never nervous or timid, and could focus perfectly on training and he just had no tension, lack of confidence or fear. he had a back like a beam, absolutely perfect hocks and an incredible shoulder. he moved with a suppleness and smoothness that could not be beaten, could collect or extend his strides, had a perfect 3 beat canter and an excellent, swoopy, tiger like walk.
                                  Last edited by slc2; Jun. 22, 2006, 10:25 AM.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by kkj
                                    Gucci Cowgirl, It wasn't the pictures that got me in critique mode, it was the comments or rather assertions that went along with them. You said that the Arabs were "easier to get through" and "going forward and into the contact" nicely. The pictures show rather clearly that neither of these are true. I don't doubt that they have made a lot of progress or that you will continue to do so with them, but your assertions are what I took issue with.By the way, my 17 hand KWPN warmblood that does not have TB or Arab anywhere near up close is super easy to get through, sensitive, forward into the contact etc. She was going a hell of a lot better than those arabs after a month under saddle. Now I realize they were trained in a non dressage (dare I say "bad" way) and that is much harder to undo than doing it correctly from the get go. However, I take issue with the assertion that "arabs are easier to get through" Those pictures do not support that claim at all.
                                    Is it not possible that perhaps these horses are *more* through than a month ago and perhaps the OP meant that the horses have come along faster in the last month than say other breeds might have in the same situation (ya know started off in a completely different discipline with completely different objectives)? I think that is what she was trying to say. Can a horse not be more through or is it an all the way kind of thing? Is a horse either "through" or not or can it be a little bit through? Even in the early stages of training or retraining?

                                    "Easier" to come through is all relative. We all come to conclusions and make generalizations from our own personal experiences.

                                    Guccigirl, I think the horses look lovely and from what you have described they have come far. It looks like you are doing a nice job with them. I do agree though, that if you post pictures you should be ready for critiques whether you actually want them or not. Critiques are not bad a bad thing unless they start getting personal or mean (which I don't think any were). So take them for what they are worth and learn from them. Perhaps post a before picture as well. But you are right, the critiques from this BB are in no way shape or form going to compare to a good riding instructor. Are you working with someone on these horses?

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      the horses aren't 'through' at all. they're stuck in the neck and dropped in the back. it's the kind of false bearing that many people find comfortable and easy to attain, but it isn't correct.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        To give the Arab fans some credit, I have seen way more sport horse type Arabs these years than in the past. However, I still see many misunderstanding these days, usually from novice riders: who mistook deer like movements and behaviours as being good for dressage... which is furthest furthest from the truth. So you don't want to see any prospect, to have a jump in each step but not really going forward, as if the animal is dancing on hot coal. You want a prospect, to really bend those joints and propell himself forward... and each step looks grounded and solid (but not earth shattering as in heavy like some drafts)... and there is an effort (but not laboured effort) to reach under and over.

                                        I also slightly disagree with the OP that Arabs are easy to come through. I have the opposite experience, that Arabs and many hot bloods like TB, tension is the biggest enemy which makes them generally hard to come through. A responsive and manuvourable horse does not necessarily equate to a soft and supple horse. Transitions, lots of them, will usually expose the problem.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          I also slightly disagree with the OP that Arabs are easy to come through. I have the opposite experience, that Arabs and many hot bloods like TB, tension is the biggest enemy which makes them generally hard to come through. A responsive and manuvourable horse does not necessarily equate to a soft and supple horse. Transitions, lots of them, will usually expose the problem.

                                          How true, at least, it has been my experience as well. However, despite the difficulty I have found my Arab partner to be well worth the extra effort. Yes, because of it I was often frustrated & took much longer than some to earn a medal before topping out due to health & conformational issues because again he is an Arab. For many of us who love Arabs whether in general or have simply found that special "one" I think it comes back to the partnership and that special bond. I have found welsh cobs to be "easier" in some ways because of exactly what you've stated and yet still possessing their own conformational challenges. I have to ride what I love & love what I ride. It has nothing to do with "my" breed(s) being better than anyone else's. It simply me and my horse and striving to do as well as is feasible/possible in the discipline I prefer. I do agree with the OP that Arabs can be fun & a very pleasant surprise.
                                          Ranch of Last Resort

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