• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

That long & deep article from Holland

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • That long & deep article from Holland

    In December, the magazine In De Strengen did a roundtable discussion with IDRC president Margit Otto-Crépin, Sjef Janssen, former Chef and trainer Johann Hinnemann, international jury member Christoph Hessand KWPN communications person Maria Henneman. They call it “round and deep” instead of “rollkur."

    Here’s some translation (more to come)

    Margit Otto-Crépin (60) knows her stuff and knows classic training. There is nothing new that she hasn’t seen before.

    She tells the tale of Paul Pflinzer, who kept the horses belonging to a one-handed German Kaiser light and obedient. “’Pflinzering’ is what we called it years ago, when we rode round and deep,” said Margit. “I always rode my horses round and deep,” added the French rider, who is best known for her partnership with the strong Holsteiner Corlando (Cor de la Bryère). This partnership won the European championships at Goodwood in 1987 and the World Cup at Gothenburg in 1989. When she would ride her powerful Holsteiner in indoor arenas, such as the World Cup final, all the show jumpers would watch her controlling this giant with the mere touch of a finger.

    “I always rode round and deep,” said Margit. “And all my trainers made me do this as well. At the Cadre Noir in 1970: round and deep. At Robert Schmidtke’s in 1975: round and deep. At Fritz Templemann’s: round and deep. At Dr. Schulten Baumer’s: round and deep. The neck had to lower from the withers to bring the back up and round. Anky and Sjef have a slightly different method, but theirs is round and deep as well. And for me, that is also classic."

    Sjef added, re those who tried round and deep by yanking and kicking, “That is bad riding and we are against that. When I see a rider kicking and yanking, it makes me angry. That has absolutely nothing to do with riding round and deep. And the so-called “classic riders” do just as much kicking and yanking. Trying to copy leading people in a sport, and doing it wrong, is something you see in all sports, and that is something we need to try and educate people about. At our barn, long and deep is not yank, kick, yank, kick.”

  • #2
    Hi Coreene,

    This article is way too realistic and logical for some of the folks on this board. They do not want to be confused with facts but would rather continue their heated, circular discussions based on emotions and perceived dressage ideals.

    Looking forward to the continuation of this article,
    Siegi
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't believe that holding a horse in 'bite-me/bite-you' position is any more classical than tieing his nose to his tail in the stall overnight is
      Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

      The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Very interesting. I actually have heard about that argument before. Thanks for translating.

        Comment


        • #5
          don't believe that holding a horse in 'bite-me/bite-you' position is any more classical than tieing his nose to his tail in the stall overnight is
          Or tieing him to a couple of pillars and making him dance on the spot?

          Edited to add:

          That was actually another cheap one liner which siegi would have got, i quoted becuase there was a post between. Lighten up sebastian you're late to the party.
          Last edited by fiona; Jun. 15, 2006, 05:59 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by fiona
            Or tieing him to a couple of pillars and making him dance on the spot?
            Oh puleeeze...

            As a firm believer of "actions speak louder than words" -- I can't take Sjef's comments seriously after seeing the video of Anky warming up...

            Seb
            Aca-Believe it!!

            Comment


            • #7
              see above.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by fiona
                see above.
                Still doesn't make sense... I will presume it's an inside joke... Again...whatever...

                Not late to anything, been watching and reading this debate for sometime...
                Seb
                Aca-Believe it!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sebastian
                  Oh puleeeze...

                  As a firm believer of "actions speak louder than words" -- I can't take Sjef's comments seriously after seeing the video of Anky warming up...

                  Seb

                  Me neither - wasn't she doing exactly what he says not to do? And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.

                  Crank and spank. Call it what you will - dress it up and make it smell like roses. Doesn't matter if you're so "classical" you poop marble, or think dressage should be spectular, or you dress your horse in a hat and sunglasses on it - whatever - I don't much care.

                  This is the disconnect - this is what I read - don't crank and spank. Then, we get lots of video that shows that's exactly what they're doing.

                  sabryant says women have to use force, then Margit says she accomplished "round and deep" with a touch of the finger, and then we see that horizontal curb and spur spur spur.

                  Doesn't add up. Sorry - if the situation was reversed I'd feel the same way.

                  Continue on with the impending trainwreck.
                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                  -Rudyard Kipling

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And the story continues

                    IMHO it is more abusive to start your horse 3 classes higher then they can handle.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well of course they're going to try to deflect attention from the fact that they're doing exactly what they are saying NOT to do. My gosh, we have VIDEOS, not even just pictures anymore, of Anky kicking and pulling on these horses with unbelievable distorted gaits, and yet that's exactly what they're saying they're not doing. Does he really think people are going to support his views for much longer?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by professor
                        IMHO it is more abusive to start your horse 3 classes higher then they can handle.
                        You know - I can't help if your some poster's evil twin Skippy or something. Was anyone here discussing the virtues or evils of competing at a higher level that your horse is ready for?

                        No.

                        So why did you bring it up, or are we going to get into degrees of "abuse" - this abuse is worse than "my abuse" so it's ok. That one was already done to death although it's still simmering if you care to go over there and poke the coals.
                        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                        -Rudyard Kipling

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          JSwan and others...

                          This horse is SOOOOO dead its got maggots crawling on it.
                          We can talk till we are blue in the face, but come on, face it, we are wrong, and they are right! Even though all the articles and statements by sj are contradictory to what the Videos show! This will all come out in the wash some day!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            So if someone with a foreign accent says something, it must be true? Rollkur/straightjacket/deep/pflinzering is bad horsemanship, and the results prove it. Period. I don't care who practices it. Some people seem to think that if they get enough "authorities" to endorse bad horsemanship, those of us with common sense will abandon our ways and start to endore it as well. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just an aside...

                              Everyone is going to bear there own opinion on this, odviously.
                              We watched a well known Olympic rider training piaffe steps on
                              Dressage Today, and kept wondering when where they ever going
                              to reward the horse.... poor horse couldn't figure out what was going
                              on, felt so sorry for him and kept hoping they would give him a break,
                              though they just kept pushing pushing pushing. This person doesn't
                              ride/train 'deep'.....and I would guess that many of you think she is
                              great...though if she were judged by that one tape....
                              ~*Ride Far*~Ride Well~*~ The Sky's the Limit~
                              www.firstgiving.com/christinahyke

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                couple of small things

                                Margrit is german by birth, French by marriage

                                1972: The Cadre Noir is demilitarized and becomes in part The Ecole Nationale d' Equitation with the mandate to keep the french riding tradition alive and train the riders and instructors of the future. The ENE is not in Saumur but inTerrefort, near Saumur.

                                The Cadre Noir itself remains a small group of 45 riders who are accepted upon an exam vs. being appointed and are led by an Ecuyer en Chef.

                                1984: The Cadre Noir de Saumur first woman to to wear the black uniform is Florence Labram

                                The doctrine of the school is General L'Hotte: "A calm, forward, straight horse".

                                Christian Carde, Cadre Noir ecuyer en chef from 1991-1999 has spoken publicly against rolkur and has founded Dressage Allege-Ideal to defend the principles of dressage and requests a strict application of FEI rules in dressage competitions, particularly article 401.

                                I think he, along with people like Phillipe Karl, Michel Henriquet, Jean D'Orgeix, basically the pillars of the french riding school who support Carde would scream heresy at anyone who suggests the Cadre Noir supports rolkur, or riding BTV.

                                I do not see Margrit saying rolkur is ok, I see her say round and deep is ok, I wish she was more specific.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Sebastian
                                  Still doesn't make sense... I will presume it's an inside joke... Again...whatever...

                                  Not late to anything, been watching and reading this debate for sometime...
                                  Seb

                                  that's the very problem- you are about to be misinformed and there is no way that can be avoided...:LOL!

                                  Good article and thank you for posting it Coreene. I am especially fond of Margit- as she has ridden my horse's dad to great honors (Loutano) and I have great respect for her....see here...http://www.horse-flirt.de/video/mov742.m1v
                                  "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    She is an excellent rider, no doubt about it.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by J Swan
                                      Me neither - wasn't she doing exactly what he says not to do? And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.

                                      Crank and spank. Call it what you will - dress it up and make it smell like roses. Doesn't matter if you're so "classical" you poop marble, or think dressage should be spectular, or you dress your horse in a hat and sunglasses on it - whatever - I don't much care.

                                      This is the disconnect - this is what I read - don't crank and spank. Then, we get lots of video that shows that's exactly what they're doing.

                                      sabryant says women have to use force, then Margit says she accomplished "round and deep" with a touch of the finger, and then we see that horizontal curb and spur spur spur.

                                      Doesn't add up. Sorry - if the situation was reversed I'd feel the same way.

                                      Continue on with the impending trainwreck.
                                      Jswan - if you can ride anything like the little video clip I just posted from Margit- you go ahead and post that- all I can make out from your profile is a draft horse cross dressed up to do some heavy duty cross country riding - more like the field hunting style and a rider that rides in a hunt seat with short stirups and rolled up legs...where do you get your incredible dressage experience from???
                                      "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        If these horses were being controlled by "the mere touch of a finger" they wouldn't have their mouth gaping open, their lips pulled taut and the reins being hauled backwards.

                                        It's more like a "touch of a backhoe..."

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X