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That long & deep article from Holland

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  • #41
    Oakesbrae - give it up. I know this person from way back on the UDBB years ago - and she hasn't changed except that she doesn't talk about Zen as much.

    If I posted an old picture of my mare, or the draft cross doing dressage - the jabs wouldn't have been any different. Or wait - then we could have talked about how fat people have no business riding! That's always a charged subject.

    and slc - Sabine initiated that - not me. I don't see this as a win/lose thing, nor am I keeping score. The subject matter is of interest to me - although I think some of us are more interested in scoring off each other. My posts to the contrary - I really just visit this forum to keep apprised of what's going on in the dressage world.

    I can see that perhaps the FEI needs to overhaul this sport a bit.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling

    Comment


    • #42
      Awww, I like talking about Zen.
      Meet Wendall the wonder horse
      and introducing Machado! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28186...SDi?vhost=pets

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by OakesBrae
        Awww, I like talking about Zen.
        Me too - but my version of the Dharma must differ from slc's - not that I'm any better at following the eightfold path to enlightenment.

        Perhaps it's karma - and I'm destined to be reborn as a yellow toed salamander. Geez - I was hoping to at least be a frog, or maybe a turtle....
        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
        -Rudyard Kipling

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by J Swan
          Unless we'd like to start bashing field hunters - in which case I'll stay. Because I'd get a good laugh over DQ's trashing another sport - particularly since the "tattered and exhausted" is a big load of sh**.
          Don't get me wrong...I'm not slamming fox hunting. Heck, I came home tattered and exhausted as well! My face had scrapes from branches hitting me while we were running. The horse's legs had some cuts too as I had been told that leg wraps weren't a good idea for various reasons. I had a blast and would do it again in a minute if I lived closer to Chagrin Valley. The horses seemed to have a blast too but it was freakin way harder on them then stretching their neck in so called hyperflexion

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Pommederue
            Don't get me wrong...I'm not slamming fox hunting. Heck, I came home tattered and exhausted as well! My face had scrapes from branches hitting me while we were running. The horse's legs had some cuts too as I had been told that leg wraps weren't a good idea for various reasons. I had a blast and would do it again in a minute if I lived closer to Chagrin Valley. The horses seemed to have a blast too but it was freakin way harder on them then stretching their neck in so called hyperflexion
            Okay - I take back all my "menopausal cat lady" inspired comments.

            I don't use any leg protection either - but I know people who do. I think one factor may be territory - in some areas the mud and grit that gets in the wraps/boots could mess up a horse's legs way worse than a thorn.

            Ever been hit in the face with a bell boot that the horse in front of you lost? OWWWW...

            As far as conditioning - well - books have been written on that, haven't they. If you take up hunting - you'll find that those horses - though tired - haven't been ridden into the ground (although like any sport you see some riders that really should take up golf) - but generally they've been properly legged up and conditioned - roaded if they could, then cubbing starts - which slowly builds up to the formal season, etc.

            But it's not - hey it's hunting season jump on the horse and gallop for 4 hours 3 times a week. Indeed - that would be cause for derisive comments - and I'd be right up there in front wagging my finger.

            And though it may seem I'm in the camp that says rollkur is punishable by death - I'm really not. I'm just questioning the merit of its application and use in the dressage horse - as evidenced by those videos.

            Otherwise - these days I'm very contented to use our lowly 2nd level knowledge in the hunt field. And I must say - riding a balanced, supple horse in the hunt field is a real pleasure - no matter what breed it is.

            Now - if the horse in that picture, and my fat butt could not be terrified of certain jumps - I'd say we were a pretty good foxhunting pair. But honestly - in certain fixtures I just hilltop. I don't want any more back surgery, and my lack of confidence over some of those jumps is really unfair to my horse.

            Now - let's move back to figuring out what level of hyperflexion we can agree may be beneficial, if any. My pathetic attempts to defend my favorite picture of my horse, will no doubt just result in more ridicule.

            And if I wanted to be ridiculed, I'd call my mother or my mother in law. They're much better at it than les femmes formidable on the COTHBB.
            Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
            Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
            -Rudyard Kipling

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #46
              I need to get the photos of Sjef riding scanned; the ones that are in the article. Where he's showing the rest of their round and deep riding. Which I can't imagine can be objectionable for anyone, save for the fact that he is wearing these seriously unattractive maroon-purple breeches and matching fleece top.

              I like Sjef. I like Anky. I like Edward and Arjen and Tieneke and Imke and Coby and Laurens, and all my other countrymen who are standing atop the podium more and more. And when I sit here and put my chin to my chest, I feel a great stretching through my neck and back. I think this whole rollkur bullshit is a rehash of the attacks on Nicole and the attacks on Isabel, but it's fueled even stronger now because the German who started flapping her jaws about it hates Anky for various reasons, including the fact that she's not German, and is basking the publicity she's getting from stirring the pot. Because if this was a German rider, she never would have started the flap that's going on now.

              JMHO, of course.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Sabine
                that's the very problem- you are about to be misinformed and there is no way that can be avoided...:LOL!

                Good article and thank you for posting it Coreene. I am especially fond of Margit- as she has ridden my horse's dad to great honors (Loutano) and I have great respect for her....see here...http://www.horse-flirt.de/video/mov742.m1v
                Misinformed, about what??

                Seb
                Aca-Believe it!!

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Coreene
                  IAnd when I sit here and put my chin to my chest, I feel a great stretching through my neck and back.
                  JMHO, of course.
                  Respectfully...before you can compare how you feel holding your chin on your chest sitting in front of a computer, put on a back pack of 50 lbs or so and do the same thing while running in circles for 20 minutes and see how you feel after that. Be sure to turn your head from side to side at the same time also. I'll take a bet that if you do you won't be able to lift your head the next morning and you'll be very uncomfortable in a few minutes. Even if you build up to it gradually, over time, carrying your body in such an unnatural position will cause other parts compensating for your out of balance posture to ache also. Just imagine if you had no choice in the matter too and you couldn't stop and lift your chin to take a break when you felt the need?

                  It's hard to compare a persons physiology to a horse's like this because we are built differently, it's something to think about.


                  JSwan...give them heck. What a nice kind sweet looking horse...just my type! I'll take up you invitation for a ride someday! I LOVE a good run across rough country!

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Coreene
                    And when I sit here and put my chin to my chest, I feel a great stretching through my neck and back.
                    I agree with you on this point...and equate this type of stretch to "carrot stretching" while my horse is standing still. A good thing, that even I practice...lol.

                    My issue with Rollkur is that it's done in motion, for extended periods of time. In my mind the analogy is more like -- tying my chin to my chest and then jogging around the block for 1/2 an hour... THAT would be painful... My other problem is that the horse is being given VERY mixed signals...which I find detrimental to the horse mentally. I understand low and deep -- and sometimes utilize it occasionally myself on young horses that need to develop their backs...but usually I do it on the lunge or with longlines. But, I can't think of it as a "way of life" -- especially for upper level horses.

                    And regarding the article, as I stated previously, actions speak louder than words. And, Sjef's words don't match the ride Anky is doing. I don't really give a wit about these people, personally, I just think it's bad riding. I've seen bad riding in the Jumpers as well, but the nice thing about bad riding in Jumpers is, it's objective and not generally rewarded for long. Luck runs out...lol.

                    JMO
                    Seb
                    Aca-Believe it!!

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by J Swan
                      Hmmm - you know- you can insult me all you fu**ing want - but don't EVER EVER insult my horse.

                      If you like, I'll say the same thing in French. Or German. Or Italian. Or Russian. Just so you don't think that every American in this country is some backwater provincial. Or should we wait until my memere visits in August from her home in - gasp - Paris, France - so we can tag team and try and match you in your "bored sophisticated European" act?

                      Get this - Muenchen frau - that photo is of - gasp - us out FOXHUNTING. I don't know many people who foxhunt in a dressage saddle.

                      Would you rather I posted a picture of myself weeding my vegetable garden?

                      If you're ever in Virginia - I'll loan you a horse. But be warned - you actually have to be able to ride on an uneven surface. You might chip a nail or smudge your lipstick.

                      Oh and by the way - I never said anything about Margit's riding.
                      JSwan- you just made my day- I really got a great laugh of your reply!! All in good jest- and yes if I ever come to Virginia- I'll ride with you....watch out though- them Germs are hardcore...might put some scrapes on them lovely draft crosses...!!
                      "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Coreene
                        I need to get the photos of Sjef riding scanned; the ones that are in the article. Where he's showing the rest of their round and deep riding. Which I can't imagine can be objectionable for anyone, save for the fact that he is wearing these seriously unattractive maroon-purple breeches and matching fleece top.

                        I like Sjef. I like Anky. I like Edward and Arjen and Tieneke and Imke and Coby and Laurens, and all my other countrymen who are standing atop the podium more and more. And when I sit here and put my chin to my chest, I feel a great stretching through my neck and back. I think this whole rollkur bullshit is a rehash of the attacks on Nicole and the attacks on Isabel, but it's fueled even stronger now because the German who started flapping her jaws about it hates Anky for various reasons, including the fact that she's not German, and is basking the publicity she's getting from stirring the pot. Because if this was a German rider, she never would have started the flap that's going on now.

                        JMHO, of course.

                        Sure - hey - got no problem with that. But even many moons ago - I didn't care much for the growing popularity of "deepness". Not because it was against some rule in dusty book somewhere - but because this method just seemed to result in an overbent restricted horse trailing his hindquarters. "A general in front, but no army marching behind" - I think someone "important" said once. And its evolution - into an extreme crank and spank - because really - that's how I see it - just - in my eyes - has an artificial and exaggerated result.

                        I'd say the same if the videos had been of an American, or a German, a Pole or a Martian. If for some reason I idolized Anky - those videos would have disappointed me as a fan.

                        Artificial and exaggerated are not words I was taught to associate with dressage. If the only comeback I can get to that is the typical 1)stupid American, 2) provincial 3) women are too weak - or other zingers that have been used, it isn't helping me change my mind.

                        Was that the intention? To change my mind? Because it didn't. And I'm willing to change my mind. Some people have really posted some good thoughts on the subject. Too bad they're not posting anymore - but maybe it's because people like me are just not seeing relaxation and true correct movement no matter how hard we try.
                        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                        -Rudyard Kipling

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #52
                          Originally posted by Sabine
                          JSwan- you just made my day- I really got a great laugh of your reply!! All in good jest- and yes if I ever come to Virginia- I'll ride with you....watch out though- them Germs are hardcore...might put some scrapes on them lovely draft crosses...!!
                          Hey Sabine, you Germ , wanna have lunch next week? Email me, coreene@yahoo.com Like maybe Tuesday or Thursday?

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Sabine
                            JSwan- you just made my day- I really got a great laugh of your reply!! All in good jest- and yes if I ever come to Virginia- I'll ride with you....watch out though- them Germs are hardcore...might put some scrapes on them lovely draft crosses...!!
                            Hey - I know. I used to live in Germany. Norddeutschland - not laid back like the south. Loved it. I especially loved riding wonderful dressage horses for 3 years.

                            You know the saying, "Inside every German is a policeman".

                            You may ride one of my horses. But - NO rolkur in the hunt field. When in Rome - do as the Romans do. And in hunting, you just pretty much scream and pray and let the horse's head go - which was the hardest lesson I learned. Stay off their mouth and back and let go of their head.

                            Since you are enjoying a laugh at my expense - I'll go even further. The best dressage I've ever done as been out hunting.

                            Yeah - laugh if you want - go ahead - I ate something and my blood sugar is normal now.

                            While lesser mortals are kicking, I merely ask for extension. Or for the horse in the picture - who completely lost his mind the first season, asking for shoulder in, half pass, etc was a wonderful way to calm his mind and settle him.

                            So y'all can cackle over that bon mot while I try and tear myself away from this keyboard - because although this has been a charming visit - all I've been doing is avoiding farm chores.
                            Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                            Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                            -Rudyard Kipling

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by OakesBrae
                              Sabine - was that not intended to poke at JSwan?

                              There slc, I asked directly.

                              no- dear- I was merely asking how she can be so qualified in matters dressage, when she portays herself as a warrior of the field...in great attire mind you.

                              However on second thought I really cherish her reply- because I laughed so hard- I almost fell off my chair...so it's all good.

                              Since you seem to be newer, Oaksbrea- you will soon find that these debates are utterly useless- and you might rather spend the time petting your dog than typing- as you can NOT learn anything new here- however sometimes someone posts a really funny post - and then it's kind of amusing...if you want to learn to ride- get a good instructor, go to shows, scribe at shows, compete, clinic and read lots of books....you'll get the idea pretty soon...
                              "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Sabine
                                no- dear- I was merely asking how she can be so qualified in matters dressage, when she portays herself as a warrior of the field...in great attire mind you.

                                However on second thought I really cherish her reply- because I laughed so hard- I almost fell off my chair...so it's all good.

                                Since you seem to be newer, Oaksbrea- you will soon find that these debates are utterly useless- and you might rather spend the time petting your dog than typing- as you can NOT learn anything new here- however sometimes someone posts a really funny post - and then it's kind of amusing...if you want to learn to ride- get a good instructor, go to shows, scribe at shows, compete, clinic and read lots of books....you'll get the idea pretty soon...
                                Sabine - Oakesbrae is an extremely competent, well rounded competitive rider and has been for many many years. Many years.

                                There are many of us that are extremely competent, experienced riders with a great eye for conformation, movement, or other important matters in horsemanship. Perhaps we're just glad Al Gore invented the internet so we can communicate with other riders.

                                Perhaps, in order to participate in the dressage forum, you'd prefer the moderators gather our resumes and forward them to you for review - before allowing us in to the sanctum sanctorum.

                                That way you can keep the riff raff out. Including former dressage addicts who took up riding to hounds to get away from the dressage queens. (little did I know there are foxhunting queens too -but that's another story)
                                Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                -Rudyard Kipling

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  I'll stand behind what Sabine says!! It has been my experience that Jswan has been nothing but a mis-interperating bully since I've started posting on this board...even at one point telling me that "if I knew who I was talking to, I wouldn't be saying the things I say." I was wondering myself how she could jockey the keyboard all day long and do so much trianing of horses. I have realized, now, that it is the people who croak the loudest with the vicious remarks who really are the least informed about any kind of training of the horse.
                                  www.stfrancispetmedals.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    It's hard to compare a persons physiology to a horse's like this because we are built differently

                                    Yes, a horse's neck is far, far more flexible than a human's. the shoulder, neck, jaw and poll have a far greater range than any comparable anatomy in a human.

                                    slc

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Oh, I have no intention of learning anything new from the Dressage forum - I simply enjoy a good train wreck - keeps me from having to do anything serious at work. If I concentrate too hard on what I am doing at work I am likely to have a coronary - so I flip back and forth to COTH to keep my mind on lighter, less substantive things.



                                      And I suppose I am relatively new to COTH (I think I've only been here, what, 2 years - and how long have you been here Sabine?) but I'm certainly no newcomer to bulletin boards of this ilk or dressage! *laughing* How rediculous of a supposition to make because I oppose a particular style of training!

                                      Tell you what - we'll go out riding - any style - Dressage, Hunter/Jumper, Hunting, Eventing...hell I'll even throw in saddle seat for good measure.

                                      And I guarantee, you'll have a different opinion of my experience and ability. Wish I could put you on the mare I just sold. *laughing* Then you'd also have a different opinion of hot and sensitive.
                                      Last edited by OakesBrae; Jun. 16, 2006, 03:29 PM.
                                      Meet Wendall the wonder horse
                                      and introducing Machado! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28186...SDi?vhost=pets

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        "if I knew who I was talking to, I wouldn't be saying the things I say"
                                        Actually, someone said that to us about you - I don't believe JSwan ever said that until the ringside gossiper remarks were thrown in her direction.

                                        Meet Wendall the wonder horse
                                        and introducing Machado! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28186...SDi?vhost=pets

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Perhaps we're just glad Al Gore invented the internet so we can communicate with other riders.
                                          JSwan, you slay me - I missed this the first time!
                                          Meet Wendall the wonder horse
                                          and introducing Machado! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28186...SDi?vhost=pets

                                          Comment

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