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That long & deep article from Holland

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  • #21
    just this to add

    And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.
    I have seen Margit ride a few times. I hope I look that good (on or off a horse) when I am her age. She has been in the warm up ring with Anky enough to know exactly what is going on.
    It seems a bit presumptuous to suggest otherwise.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

    Comment


    • #22
      Nice article Coreene! Thank you

      Jswan
      I sure wish you would stop mis-quoting me! I never said I used force while training. It is positively spooky that you keep bringing up my name with false accusations in your posts!


      Originally posted by J Swan
      Me neither - wasn't she doing exactly what he says not to do? And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.

      Crank and spank. Call it what you will - dress it up and make it smell like roses. Doesn't matter if you're so "classical" you poop marble, or think dressage should be spectular, or you dress your horse in a hat and sunglasses on it - whatever - I don't much care.

      This is the disconnect - this is what I read - don't crank and spank. Then, we get lots of video that shows that's exactly what they're doing.

      sabryant says women have to use force, then Margit says she accomplished "round and deep" with a touch of the finger, and then we see that horizontal curb and spur spur spur.

      Doesn't add up. Sorry - if the situation was reversed I'd feel the same way.

      Continue on with the impending trainwreck.
      Last edited by sabryant; Jun. 16, 2006, 04:55 AM.
      www.stfrancispetmedals.com

      Comment


      • #23
        sabryant - some folks on these RK threads are on what I call "continuous loop" - they continue saying the same nonsense ad nauseum because that's all they know. You really can't take them seriously...

        I'm sure you read the "contribution" by Little Filly where she condemns RK as brutal, yet in the same breath she asks for ideas to keep her newly imported horse that suffers in the Florida heat, going in several classes at a show. I guess it's better for a horse to get heat stroke than to "hyperflex" it's neck.

        If ignorance is bliss, then there must be a bunch of extremely happy people on this BB.
        Siegi Belz
        www.stalleuropa.com
        2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
        Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

        Comment


        • #24
          LOL!

          Comment


          • #25
            magrit? lol. maaahgrit!

            Comment


            • #26
              sabryant - you said that it required strength to tell a young horse how to find it's balance. If you were misinterpreted, you certainly didn't do a good job explaining yourself.

              You said that you needed an equal amount of hand and leg, and as long as they were equal, it didn't matter.

              That being said, it's still debatable whether you are talking about f/d/o or the extreme rollkur that we saw in the videos. What we saw was a nose touching the chest and the horse being forced (yes, not coerced "lightly") to do piaffe, canter transitions, etc. in this position. For 5 minutes I watched one horse and there was no release of the face.

              Tell me how this jives, if you would. Thank you very much - I'm trying VERY hard to understand where you are coming from.
              Meet Wendall the wonder horse
              and introducing Machado! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28186...SDi?vhost=pets

              Comment


              • #27
                sabryant - I wasn't "quoting" you. Call it paraphrasing. But like I said before - I'm not really interested in your "method" because honestly, I just fired a vet and farrier who shared this view that force is necessary with young horses.

                Funny - the new vet and the new farrier, who don't subscribe to this theory - have had no trouble with the young horse. And since I never use force or strength in young horses trying to find their balance under saddle or on the longe - amazingly they manage to turn into good citizens that are balanced relaxed and responsive under saddle. That's the purpose of dressage, after all.

                It may be coincidence, it may be blind luck, it may be that I am god's gift to the world and haven't been discovered yet. But I most sincerely doubt I am anything other than a fat menopausal cat lady who was taught differently than you. Much differently.



                Originally posted by OakesBrae
                sabryant - you said that it required strength to tell a young horse how to find it's balance. If you were misinterpreted, you certainly didn't do a good job explaining yourself.

                You said that you needed an equal amount of hand and leg, and as long as they were equal, it didn't matter.
                Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                -Rudyard Kipling

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Sabine
                  Jswan - if you can ride anything like the little video clip I just posted from Margit- you go ahead and post that- all I can make out from your profile is a draft horse cross dressed up to do some heavy duty cross country riding - more like the field hunting style and a rider that rides in a hunt seat with short stirups and rolled up legs...where do you get your incredible dressage experience from???

                  Hmmm - you know- you can insult me all you fu**ing want - but don't EVER EVER insult my horse.

                  If you like, I'll say the same thing in French. Or German. Or Italian. Or Russian. Just so you don't think that every American in this country is some backwater provincial. Or should we wait until my memere visits in August from her home in - gasp - Paris, France - so we can tag team and try and match you in your "bored sophisticated European" act?

                  Get this - Muenchen frau - that photo is of - gasp - us out FOXHUNTING. I don't know many people who foxhunt in a dressage saddle.

                  Would you rather I posted a picture of myself weeding my vegetable garden?

                  If you're ever in Virginia - I'll loan you a horse. But be warned - you actually have to be able to ride on an uneven surface. You might chip a nail or smudge your lipstick.

                  Oh and by the way - I never said anything about Margit's riding.
                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                  -Rudyard Kipling

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by J Swan
                    I most sincerely doubt I am anything other than a fat menopausal cat lady
                    Paraphrasing in action.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by HXF
                      Paraphrasing in action.

                      Humility is one virtue that is completely lacking in this forum - you see - I'm merely saying that I don't have to act "a part". Seems to me there is a lot of "puffing" of credentials, name dropping, etc. Pretty prententious.

                      It's ok to be a fat menopausal cat lady and still know a lot about dressage. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor is having a sense of humour about ones physical appearance.

                      Do any of you realize that some of the posters who are so adamant about this issue are also well known respected professionals?
                      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                      -Rudyard Kipling

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally Posted by J Swan
                        I most sincerely doubt I am anything other than a fat menopausal cat lady

                        Paraphrasing in action.
                        That's not paraphrasing at all!

                        Main Entry: 1para·phrase
                        Pronunciation: 'par-&-"frAz
                        Function: noun
                        Etymology: Middle French, from Latin paraphrasis, from Greek, from paraphrazein to paraphrase, from para- + phrazein to point out
                        1 : a restatement of a text, passage, or work giving the meaning in another form
                        2
                        : the use or process of paraphrasing in studying or teaching composition

                        That means saying the SAME THING in another form. Not making the meaning the opposite. Good gravy.

                        Sabine - why are you so venemous? You are certainly not proving your point in my eyes. Nor is sabryant, who I am desperately trying to understand. We are reflecting what we read - if you meant something else

                        BY ALL MEANS EXPLAIN IT.

                        However, sabryant continued to insist that men rode with "strength" and that women need rollkur to "keep up". The posts have been edited since (by sabryant, who did admit it, thank you sabryant) to make them more clear - but to me, it's still not clear how sabryant rides since on one hand she defends rollkur and calls her method riding deep - yet other hand sounds like she's doing f/d/o.

                        Which is it?

                        sabryant yesterday (was it yesterday) got hysterical claiming that WE were the ones shooting nasty comments. I'd like to venture a guess that not one of you can point out a nasty comment that I've made. I continue to try to understand you, as has just about every "anti" in each of the threads and all I hear is "woe is us, everyone is being mean - they don't get it - they aren't european (which is a hysterical presumption by the way)"

                        Malarkey!
                        Meet Wendall the wonder horse
                        and introducing Machado! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28186...SDi?vhost=pets

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          that's because you ARE shooting nasty comments, lol.

                          jswan, the person was describing your horse, which indeed does look like a draft cross, which are quite frequently used for field hunters, which you say is what you were doing, so what exactly are you getting all effy about?

                          and finally, NO, this is NOT done because these women are 'weak' or to 'keep up with the men', that is the most ridiculous thing i ever heard of in my life, and to me is just another part of the alternative universe you guys have invented.

                          slc
                          Last edited by slc2; Jun. 16, 2006, 11:36 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            slc, read the tone of Sabine's comment to JSwan. It certainly was not complimentary of her horse or her. In fact, it was doubting that JSwan even knew how to ride - to QUOTE (not paraphrase) "all I can make out from your profile is a draft horse cross dressed up to do some heavy duty cross country riding "

                            That isn't exactly complimentary based on the first sentence of the para.
                            Meet Wendall the wonder horse
                            and introducing Machado! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28186...SDi?vhost=pets

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Sannois
                              This horse is SOOOOO dead its got maggots crawling on it.
                              This is soooo true!

                              Wow J Swan. I don't think Sabine insulted your horse, she simply pointed out that he appeared to be a draft cross. And while we're on the subject, it appears that you're only hill topping from the photo although I know photos are only a moment in time. Anyway, I have been fox hunting and I can tell you that it is and extreme sport...harder on the horse that anything I have ever done! Several hours of running over hard ground and then through thick mud. The horses are tattered and exhausted by the end. I just can't believe you would engage in that sport and have anything at all to say about someone else's method of training.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Round and deep, I've seen it, is not how Andy et el does it. And the article is interesting because it tries to draw attention that round and deep has been used and deemed useful. The way I see it, it does not present the context of how it is performed and I would never speculate this is equal to RK. How round, how deep, and what you do in a 'round and deep' frame (halt, walk, or piaffe?)... don't you guys want to know vs. cat fighting with each other?

                                I have seen 'round and deep' practiced in Europe.. BUT IN HALT ONLY. The flexing is like a carrot stretch... horses are taught to bend down all the way over with nose touching under their chest, while lifting their back but at the stand still... when spur pressure are applied (and quite a heavy amount of spur as well). Horses also flex their necks both sides. There is no mistake this is not RK.

                                I would be very curious to find out, if this 'round and deep', is what the article is talking about and if it was practiced also when horse is in motion.

                                I am pretty sure 'round and deep' has been around for a while... it is not an Anky thing. I also heard from breeder that big WB's vertabrae are tight (??), round and deep could help supple the horse, so it has to do with the horse's confromation. But it is true, I did not study this theory any further nor did I find out how it is done.

                                I don't understand why you guys are so excited about each other. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but please show emotional maturity. I hate it when people lump all dressage riders as bad or do not respect it as a specialised discipline. I gave a lesson to a person who is not in dressage, she told me it's the best riding she's ever had on her horse (happy!)... that's dressage for you. What can I say? Too bad dressage has been frustrating for you! I suggest you find a better trainer and stop pretending to do dressage. I would really like to see those mouthy people, demonstrate they could ride and teach and manage horses.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  hehehe

                                  please show emotional maturity
                                  and pigs might fly someday too

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    You're right. The post was intended to denigrate me, not the horse. Who did solid 2nd level work - as well as evented at Novice - not much - but I daresay should folks start picking on the backbone of every sport - the lower level amateur - you'd probably have some very interesting responses from the many many people on COTH who will never step on an Olympic podium.

                                    That photo was taken at a check and was emailed to me as a gift by the photographer. I like the photographer - nice person. It was a nice gesture, too. If you have really been foxhunting, you'd know what a check is - the horses - whether hilltopping or first flight - are pretty still. Indeed - if the photo was taken of me galloping across a hayfield you would still not be able to discern in what field I was riding. Not that it matters - because I ride to hunt - I don't see foxhunting as a social statement.

                                    Now - in case I need to ride a WB to qualify to make any comments about dressage, I can dig around and find an old picture of my Hano mare. But this photo - I thought it was nice - and besides - I didn't have to scan it - it was a jpg sent to me. Heck - might as well get some use out of that premium membership!

                                    So if doesn't offend anyone - I think I'll continue to cherish it as a nice picture of me and a beloved mount. If you don't like it - well - you'll live.

                                    I think that the point of relative abuse has been done to death, and I suggest strongly that any discussion of foxhunting be taken to the foxhunting forum - because it's off season and there are folks with nothing else to do except correct your mistaken impression of hunting.

                                    Unless we'd like to start bashing field hunters - in which case I'll stay. Because I'd get a good laugh over DQ's trashing another sport - particularly since the "tattered and exhausted" is a big load of sh**.

                                    If you like - I'll wander over to FOL and let them know y'all are about to denigrate yet another sport as well - to take away from any meaningful, intelligent debate about a training method that even the FEI is a bit concerned about.

                                    That'll be good for a LOT of laughs - we were just posting about how dull it is now that the season's over. It will particularly be of interest to the fieldhunters who do things like dressage with their field hunters. Egad - fieldhunters doing dressage - whodathunk it.







                                    Originally posted by Pommederue
                                    This is soooo true!

                                    Wow J Swan. I don't think Sabine insulted your horse, she simply pointed out that he appeared to be a draft cross. And while we're on the subject, it appears that you're only hill topping from the photo although I know photos are only a moment in time. Anyway, I have been fox hunting and I can tell you that it is and extreme sport...harder on the horse that anything I have ever done! Several hours of running over hard ground and then through thick mud. The horses are tattered and exhausted by the end. I just can't believe you would engage in that sport and have anything at all to say about someone else's method of training.
                                    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                    -Rudyard Kipling

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      tone, shmone, you guys find tone where there is none. your deal is to derail the discussion with moral outrage about your horsey pooh any time it looks like you're losing the discussion. this is at the very least the most idiotic turn these discussions have ever taken. for god's sake, the horse DOES look like a draft horse, and you who don't look like a dressage rider at all, are out there trashing riders in another division in which you have NO involvement and constantly profess to hate, that's like wearing a sign that says 'kick me', it's going to happen eventually that someone is going to tell you fox hunting is pretty damn hard on a horse too, because it IS, galloping at speed over country and jumping IS hard on a horse, ask any RATIONAL fox hunter and they will tell you the same. there is a reason people usually have a horse take turns and don't gallop their a**** off every day.

                                      go drink some alcohol. on second thought, maybe not. you might be worse with a hangover!

                                      slc

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        What can I say? Too bad dressage has been frustrating for you! I suggest you find a better trainer and stop pretending to do dressage. I would really like to see those mouthy people, demonstrate they could ride and teach and manage horses.
                                        Which mouthy people?

                                        *smile*
                                        Meet Wendall the wonder horse
                                        and introducing Machado! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28186...SDi?vhost=pets

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Sabine - was that not intended to poke at JSwan?

                                          There slc, I asked directly.
                                          Meet Wendall the wonder horse
                                          and introducing Machado! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28186...SDi?vhost=pets

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