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Draw Reins???

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  • #21
    Call them what you want. I use them if necessary on horses that need them. If you don't know or can't tell which horse will benefit and which horses might suffer from their use, don't use them.

    Comment


    • #22
      well, lstevenson, you're wrong, and quite a few visitors have said they not only have draw reins, but use them.

      it is how often a rider uses them, and for what, and for how long, that makes the difference. i was always taught that MOST of the uses of them are wrong, and that MANY people misuse them, and that MANY people rely on them too much.

      i have also seen a really awesome classical rider who NEVER rides rollkur, use them, to great benefit. for about 6 rides. and they were NOT cranking the head in, in fact, the horse had its neck more stretched out in front of it and more correct than i had ever seen. a skilled trainer knows when to use these things, and how. the majority of people - they don't, and they are a cop out. we had a trainer here who had every single one of her students horses living in the things. there is a difference.


      slc

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      • #23
        At a clinic, I heard Anky Van Grunsven say that she uses draw reins for her own safety when hacking out on the trail.

        I found that amusing since it totally contradicted her reputation as a rollkur dominatrix.
        Last edited by Eclectic Horseman; Jun. 8, 2006, 01:49 PM.
        "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by slc2
          well, lstevenson, you're wrong, and quite a few visitors have said they not only have draw reins, but use them.

          it is how often a rider uses them, and for what, and for how long, that makes the difference.


          slc


          And would those visitors be........ the extra voices in your head?

          Maybe NEW meds are required, slc.

          Hmm... every TRAINER I have talked to from the SRS says they do not EVER use draw reins.
          http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by lstevenson
            And would those visitors be........ the extra voices in your head?

            Maybe NEW meds are required, slc.

            Hmm... every TRAINER I have talked to from the SRS says they do not EVER use draw reins.
            Karl Mikolka begs to differ.

            http://www.angelfire.com/sports/dres...l#draw%20reins

            slc-you owe me a drink
            "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

            Comment


            • #26
              sure, i'll take some claritin and kick podhajskys grave since hes the one who wrote that.

              Comment


              • #27
                Whatever...

                Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman
                At a clinic, I heard Anky Van Grunsven say that she uses draw reins for her own safety when hacking out on the trail.

                I found that amusing since it totally contradicted her reputation as a rollkur dominatrix.

                So AvG is generally regarded as the "most accomplished" dressage rider (by the standard of competitions won).

                And dressage is supposed to make a horse more rideable, supple, obedient...and is supposedly the basis for all other traditional "english" disciplines....

                But she needs draw reins to safely ride horses outside of the controlled environment of the arena.

                SO....dressage does NOT make a horse more rideable, supple, obedient....

                I give up. I have always been dumbfounded (though I probably should not be), that the harmonious and relaxed performances of Brentina (and other relaxed and less "brilliant" performers) always place behind the performances of horses that are brilliaint, but tense, look explosive, etc. but are exaggerated movers, sometimes neither performing walks nor immobile halts..... Obviously, whatever produces Brentina's performance must NOT be dressage, eh? Whatever.

                I guess it's a good thing I have never aspired to Olympic/International competition. Sigh.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Sandy M
                  So AvG is generally regarded as the "most accomplished" dressage rider (by the standard of competitions won).

                  And dressage is supposed to make a horse more rideable, supple, obedient...and is supposedly the basis for all other traditional "english" disciplines....

                  But she needs draw reins to safely ride horses outside of the controlled environment of the arena.

                  SO....dressage does NOT make a horse more rideable, supple, obedient....

                  I give up. I have always been dumbfounded (though I probably should not be), that the harmonious and relaxed performances of Brentina (and other relaxed and less "brilliant" performers) always place behind the performances of horses that are brilliaint, but tense, look explosive, etc. but are exaggerated movers, sometimes neither performing walks nor immobile halts..... Obviously, whatever produces Brentina's performance must NOT be dressage, eh? Whatever.

                  I guess it's a good thing I have never aspired to Olympic/International competition. Sigh.
                  Anky didn't say that she used draw reins on her FEI horses. (I don't know if she hacks them out....) She rides young greenies as well--in fact she was laid up with a broken leg for much of 2004 when she was bucked off a young horse.

                  Not only are the horses that AVG chooses HOT, they are also extremely athletic!!!!
                  "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman
                    Anky didn't say that she used draw reins on her FEI horses. (I don't know if she hacks them out....) She rides young greenies as well--in fact she was laid up with a broken leg for much of 2004 when she was bucked off a young horse.

                    Not only are the horses that AVG chooses HOT, they are also extremely athletic!!!!

                    nooo- it was Joker that bucked her off after a lengthy layup. Not a young horse.
                    "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Sabine
                      nooo- it was Joker that bucked her off after a lengthy layup. Not a young horse.
                      Well, she is quoted as saying "a young horse" and that was what I remembered her saying as well. Here's one such quote

                      "On the problems encountered in the last season:

                      'Last year I had some difficult moments because of my broken leg following a fall from a young horse. That kept me out of competition for five months. Honestly I can't believe how fast things went in the training of SALINERO.'"

                      Found here-
                      http://eventingetc.com/2004/july_sep...age_aug_25.htm

                      Whatever
                      "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Whatever. I've started several young horses, for various english disciplines and I would regard draw reins as a DANGEROUS tool to use out on a hack. Nor have I ever needed them, either with OTTBs, or a couple of young and powerful WBs I "taught" to be trail horses, as well as whatever other discipline they were aimed towards.

                        While I know that Hilda Gurney, Gunter Seidel and others DO hack out their FEI horses (or have someone hack them out for them), I do wonder if AvG does every "hack" Salinero or her other higher level horses, and if so, in draw reins???

                        Frankly, I've reached the point where I don't much care. While I watch DVDs and tapes of various high level competitions, and can admire the beauty of the horses, and know that I, personally, will never achieve that level, I can't say that I like the tenseness and the appearance that some riders are muscling their horses around or that the horses may spook or otherwise explode at any moment. I don't often see any horses that look like "happy" relaxed athletes (whatever that may mean) with only the type of dynamic tension that high level athletic performance produces. It does not appear to me to be THAT kind of tension. When I do see a relaxed, correct, "cheerful" performance, it's a big surprise - "Oh, isn't that lovely! How harmonious, etc." - not at all what I see (most of the time, but not always) with many of the winning performances. Since 3rd level is the highest I have achieved, though I have had the honor of riding some FEI level horses, I realize that many will say I am not in a position to criticize, but frankly, if what the riders with tense horses do is absolutely necessary and correct to reach FEI levels, then I don't want to reach FEI levels.

                        Heck. My horse is older now, I haven't shown in a couple of years, primarily for financial reasons, and I won't have a new horse to ride/train until my present horse is unrideable ane therefore retired to a friend's farm, or passed on. But I can assure you that any new horse of mine will not be ridden in draw reins. ROFLOL

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Draw reins are evil

                          I've read several posts here along the lines of "I (or student) only use them when I (or student) needs to work on position" or "the horse is too strong for the rider and a pulling contest is bad." Even better -- draw reins are only used under "experienced supervision."

                          If the rider needs work on their position, ride a schoolmaster or put them on the lunge line. If the horse is too strong for the rider, sell it and get one they can ride. Let them learn the basic skills necessary to ride any horse in the future on a horse they CAN ride today.

                          Draw reins create an illusion of success. That occasional use creeps up into regularly use before you know it.

                          It's the horse and the next rider who has to ride through that bad training that suffer for it. It has taken me more than 6 months to detox my horse from draw reins. I can honestly say that in my experience, draw reins were used to compensate overhorsed riders.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Abbott Davis Balancing rein vs drawreins vs german martingale??

                            Sorry folks, if my comment/question were not to fit this thread, then just ignore it please. I didn't really fancy starting a new thread over this, so I'm hoping it sort of fits in with this drawrein post .

                            Here's my question. Would you consider an Abbot Davis Balancing rein to be better then drawreins or would you consider it to be the same?
                            picture, see link
                            http://www.discountsaddlery.co.uk/sh...cat=65&p_mfr=x
                            Detailed view
                            http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/The-Balancer-C...ayphotohosting

                            It was recommended to me once by a trainer. I bought it, still got it in it's package & haven't used it so far.
                            Just curious if you would consider it's action to be one of "an illusion of an engaged horse, but in a forced outline" similar to drawreins, or would you consider it actually helpfull in correct muscle development if the rider can't achieve it on a horse that has it's head in the stars most of the time.
                            To me they look like a mix of drawreins & german martingale. The latter I find not very suitable, because when you relax the rein, you loose all contact with the horse.
                            Anybody out there using the Abbott Davis??
                            Thank you.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Gracie
                              I've read several posts here along the lines of "I (or student) only use them when I (or student) needs to work on position" or "the horse is too strong for the rider and a pulling contest is bad." Even better -- draw reins are only used under "experienced supervision."

                              If the rider needs work on their position, ride a schoolmaster or put them on the lunge line. If the horse is too strong for the rider, sell it and get one they can ride. Let them learn the basic skills necessary to ride any horse in the future on a horse they CAN ride today.

                              Draw reins create an illusion of success. That occasional use creeps up into regularly use before you know it.

                              It's the horse and the next rider who has to ride through that bad training that suffer for it. It has taken me more than 6 months to detox my horse from draw reins. I can honestly say that in my experience, draw reins were used to compensate overhorsed riders.
                              Gracie, obviously your horse was BADLY ridden in draw reins. Correctly used, they do not in any way "scar" a horse. The use of draws to as you put it, compensate for an overhorsed rider, is definitely one of the examples of draw rein abuse. Whoever rode your horse before was getting wrong advice/supervision and should have figured out a different solution to the problem. Selling the horse before it got ruined, or as you so correctly point out, taking lunge lessons or using a different horse until the rider is more competent.

                              I go back again to blaming the practitioner, not the device.

                              Unfortunately, not all of us have schoolmasters available to ride. We often must make do with what we have and do the best we can to help develop a harmonious partnership with horse and rider. So far, I haven't resorted to draws with a student's horse and hope never to be in that position. It is a device to be used only in the most extreme of circumstances. And then used with great care.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by ideayoda
                                The purpose of draw reins is lateral flexability NOT longitudinal flexion. That is why the use of them usually fails, they are used in a pulley fashion for longitudinal flexion and with continuous contact. Used in this way the horse gets stronger in the underneck, and never correctly mobile in the jaw nor in self carriage. Definately not to be used by a less educated rider.


                                And you may ride and train a gozillion horses and never need them.. but one day you will get on that horse that has been taught to go so incorrectly that you send your working student to the tack room to find them, forgotten behind the door, covered in mold.

                                If you never have and never do, good for you but it just may be that you haven't met that horse yet!
                                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                ---
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  The use however still remains that they should be used to promote lateral flexability and without a pulley effect.
                                  I.D.E.A. yoda

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by ideayoda
                                    The use however still remains that they should be used to promote lateral flexability and without a pulley effect.

                                    Even using them for lateral flexability has a pulley effect. That's how draw reins work. They (even when used kindly) force a horse to "give".

                                    In correct dressage a horse should not even have the idea that he is to "give" to the bit.

                                    For those of you who think draw reins are usefull, let me ask what do you think they do for you exactly? That correct training without gadgets couldn't?
                                    http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      i like it -- lstevenson-- haha

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        lstevenson - the point for me is that 1) when the horse has actually been trained into an incorrect response, I can show him very quickly what the correct response is 2) the longer a horse goes giving an incorrect response to the energy coming over his topline and through his front end the more wear and tear he does to his body - horses with this issue tend to have TMJ and their atlas gets out of whack as they twist and contort their heads, of course any time energy is getting pushed backwards the whole body suffers, these horses also will have sore croups/hocks/etc.

                                        So if I can show him in one or two rides that there is a *different* possible response to the aids, we can get on with correct work that much faster. I don't think there is any virtue in taking a longer time than necessary to correct that particular issue as it becomes a vicious circle that perpetuates itself with the horse being sore and resentful (usually the reason he was brought in for training in the first place, or to be sold )

                                        Energy must recycle for the horse to feel good and want to work.. the quicker we get to that place where the horse is happy to do his job, the better IMO. Like I said, the draw reins are buried behind the door and usually moldy when retrieved, that is how little use they see.. once every few years I think. But for the right horse, with a certain issue, they are invaluable in getting on with helping the horse get better.
                                        "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                        ---
                                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Two Simple, I am sorry but YOU are simply mistaken. You obviously do not have the riding skills to have ever experienced what I am talking about, but just because YOU have not experienced it does not mean it does not exist.
                                          You clearly have no understanding of how a horse gets on the aids. None. You are "talking" about something you have no clue about . I am shocked that you would display such ignorance unless it was because you were aware of your deficiency and trying to learn something.

                                          Don't try to tell me my horses don't like to be on the aids and work, because they do. I am sure while you are galloping around with your horses tail flagging they are having a good time, no doubt about it - but that doesn't mean that mine don't like being on the aids. WTF is this about harsh contact on their mouths? My horses MAKE the contact, they reach onto the end of the rein. I don't hold them in or pull them back. WOW you are clueless.

                                          Psssst.. secret to ya' - your horse would LOVE the way I would ride, and she'd be on the aids, too - round and reaching onto the end of the rein. Whereas my horse might launch you, because he dislikes being hollow and inverted - once they know better it's hard to go back to having a weight on their inverted, hollow back. They learn that it feels better to carry that weight with their back up and rear end coming under - it's easier.

                                          Anytime you want to give it a public challenge you just let me know. I'll even do it in your western saddle
                                          "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                          ---
                                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                          Comment

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