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How can people train horses this way? It is abusive.

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  • i get your point and i agree. i also have asked some really top notch eventers, 'how many all out events does a horse have in him?' and i get answers like 'one'. alot. it IS dangerous, and the rider chooses to do it, and the horse is taught to do it, gradually and gently perhaps or not so gradually and gently, it is still dangerous. galloping a horse across open country is just dangerous. the faster you go, the more dangeorus it is. the old saying, 'speed kills', is true. it just is true. talk all you want, argue all you want, have a fit because someone is criticizing a sport you like, it will still be true.

    i see the similarity too. say you used a training technique that was proven to put wear and tear on your horse's legs, back and neck. say you used an extreme training technique, and it put MORE wear and tear on your horse. that can be comparable to taking the risk of an accident while galloping cross country. any of the activities may harm the horse.

    the training method, the galloping across open country, jumping, all might harm your horse. all have a higher risk than plodding around at a walk. we do these things because we WANT TO. we want to ride. we want to do a or b or c with our horses.

    but, the discussion hinges on believing several things: 1. rollkur is more dangerous and more harmful 2. rollkur is done by force 3. rollkur makes horses unhappy 4. rollkur destroys the horses performance in dressage 5. rollkur is different/worse from all the other positioning done in any other riding sport

    Comment


    • Originally posted by kkj
      I think you guys are either unwilling or unable to accept my point. Eventing is a dangerous sport. Even with the reforms, the precautions, the great interest the riders have in not hurting the horses. It is inherently quite dangerous. Crashes are foreseeable. The horses do it because the rider tells them too. They do not understand the risk. The people I think do. If you choose to event your horse and it crashes, you are culpable. Just as the rider who deliberately hauls on the horses mouth is culpable in Rolkur.

      Eventing is slightly dangerous for the rider. I say slightly, because that risk greatly diminishes with good skills and knowledge. It is still more dangerous to drive a car on the freeway. On x-c it's just you and the horse, on the freeway you have a million other maniacs out there.

      Horses RARELY get injured or killed on x-c. They have a much better chance of getting seriously injured out in the field with thier buddies.

      I've been doing it for 25 years, and have never had a horse fall down on x-c.

      And anyone who thinks that the horses only do x-c because they are trained to are just showing their ignorance.
      http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

      Comment


      • Originally posted by slc2
        i also have asked some really top notch eventers, 'how many all out events does a horse have in him?' and i get answers like 'one'. alot.


        Oh slc, you are so full of %$#* it is actually funny!

        Please NAME the top notch eventers you have talked to about this.

        "one"? What about all the horses who have competed in the Olympics past the age of 18? There have been MANY. Including Gold medals. Those horses have done hundreds and hundreds of events in their life. Some have done up to 10 Advanced three days. And usually love every minute of it.

        One.
        http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

        Comment


        • Originally posted by slc2
          the training method, the galloping across open country, jumping, all might harm your horse.

          Dressage horses get just as many injuries as eventers. They are just different kinds of injuries. Again, the horse is probably more at risk out in the field with a group of horses. I know many people who have had to put a horse down because of a fracture from a kick in the field.

          Maybe we should just line all of the horses up and shoot them to avoid the "abuse"?
          http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

          Comment


          • L'stevenson, you think I am ignorant because I assert that a horse would not go out and do a cross country course by itself. Huh? I acknowledge that out in the wild a horse may run and jump an obstacle but it is not going to jump a course for enjoyment.

            I am talking about advanced level eventing here with very skilled riders. (as compared to Grand Prix dressage with the Ankys of the world) You think that is only slightly dangerous? You may be right that one is more likely to get killed in a car accident, but if you did an advanced level cross country course as often as you got in your car, I am honestly not sure that you would not get killed on the cross country course first. You just can't compare the two when you do one every day and the other one, even the top riders don't do too often. A horse really only has so many big cross country jumps in it whether it gets injured or not. How many of the top event riders in the world have never crashed or been injured. They are taking a sport to its limit and from what I have been able to gather, most crash at some point or other. You have never crashed cross country. What is the highest level you have done? Either you are very lucky or you have not pushed yourself to the level I am talking about.

            I also take issue with that cross country does not cause injuries or only those less in frequency or seriousness than those common in horses out in pasture. I cannot give statistics here but I will bet you the mortality insurance on an advanced level eventer would be a much higher percentage of the value of the horse than that of a grand Prix dressage horse. Eventing at that level is dangerous. I don't think I am saying anything radical in asserting that.

            If it was only as dangerous as stadium jumping or dressage, you could sign me up. I got a huge rush doing it and found the people involved in it to be fun, down to earth and just great to be around. I like many people was drawn away from it due to the risk. Crashes happen more frequently than the risk I am willing to assume. Call me stupid, call me a wimp, but I think most people in the horse world are at least as wimpy as I am.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by kkj
              L'stevenson, you think I am ignorant because I assert that a horse would not go out and do a cross country course by itself. Huh? I acknowledge that out in the wild a horse may run and jump an obstacle but it is not going to jump a course for enjoyment.

              Ok, I will extend my invitation to you too. Feel free to come sit on my Advanced horse if you would like to see how much some horses love x-c. And the ones that aren't like mine simply don't make it to the upper levels.

              Watch many horses free jumping, they will buck and play and are simply enjoying themselves.

              Most x-c horses come off of the course feeling like they are the coolest horse in the world. They love it.

              Most, but not all, horses would MUCH rather do x-c than dressage. Does that make dressage cruel? Because horses would NEVER go do a dressage test by themselves.
              http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

              Comment


              • L'stevenson,
                So I looked up your name and see you have competed in Advanced level eventing and been in the mix with the best riders. And you have never crashed cross country. I have a lot of respect for your skills. Obviously you know a hell of a lot more about eventing than I do.

                You are also not scared off by the risk. More power to you.

                I do stand by my assertation that it is a dangerous sport. More dangerous than dressage or show jumping or the likelihood of a horse getting badly hurt or killed in a pasture.

                Still I respect you for your talent, skills and guts. I hope you ride for another 25 + years and never crash.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by kkj
                  L'stevenson,
                  So I looked up your name and see you have competed in Advanced level eventing and been in the mix with the best riders. And you have never crashed cross country. I have a lot of respect for your skills. Obviously you know a hell of a lot more about eventing than I do.

                  You are also not scared off by the risk. More power to you.

                  I do stand by my assertation that it is a dangerous sport. More dangerous than dressage or show jumping or the likelihood of a horse getting badly hurt or killed in a pasture.

                  Still I respect you for your talent, skills and guts. I hope you ride for another 25 + years and never crash.


                  Thanks! I think you make it an educated risk, by getting the best training and preperation, and of course by choosing smart, athletic horses that love their job. It really does make a difference.

                  Oh, and I have fallen off on x-c (rider error,of course ), I've just never had a horse fall. Nor ever had a horse injured on x-c.
                  http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                  Comment


                  • I think we can all accept that eventing is dangerous. The problem with this whole argument that none of the talking heads above seem to realize (admit?) is that while yes, there's some risk in x-c jumping, you're not forcing the horse to do something it can't do naturally. Ever see a horse in a rollkur position out in a field? I haven't, at least not for more than about half a second biting at a fly.

                    Comment


                    • slc2 - you are so full of sh** your eyes are brown. Is there ANY subject you are not an expert on? Over on the UDBB years ago I had to read through your incomprehensible musings on Zen Buddhism and dressage - and now here you are, hobnobbing with certain nameless top level eventers whispering eventings dirty little secrets in your ear over tea and crumpets.

                      Stupid me - I recently saw Giltedge at the Expo - and somehow - after eventing all these years - he looks and acts like a 2 year old. And somehow - my neighbors mare managed to event AND hunt until her 20's - fit as a fiddle and raring to go. Great dressage, too.

                      Rollkur does not equal eventing - come on folks - you're really really really grasping at straws here - it's getting deep. What other sport will you point fingers at next? Endurance?
                      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                      -Rudyard Kipling

                      Comment


                      • swan-

                        put her on your "ignore" list. i PROMISE you that your coth experience will improve 100%. you will never have to read about her, or any of her imaginary freinds' expertise again. i highly recommend it.

                        "Apparently from reading some of the responses, irony has become a lost art form."

                        apparently from reading the op, irony has become a lost art form.

                        the op's attempt at humor/sarcasm/irony is pretty lame.

                        Comment


                        • My god in heaven, bjrudq and I agree on something. It's a miracle! Hehehe, just playing with you bj, even though we don't agree on much at UDBB, I do respect your opinions.

                          Comment


                          • UDBB?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by poopoo
                              UDBB?
                              ultimate dressage BB
                              "Do you care, or don’t you care? Because if you do care, you better speak up now or take what you get."
                              — Denny Emerson www.savethe3day.org
                              **proud member of the trakehNERD group**

                              Comment


                              • What the fruitbat?? Are you serious??
                                I love cats, I love every single cat....
                                So anyway I am a cat lover
                                And I love to run.

                                Comment


                                • and yet again, i will post this... please, someone make some sense to me?

                                  Originally posted by bigdreamer
                                  ok, so, how exactly does one use rk? is it a position that a rider goes in and out of, depending on how the horse feels? for instance if you lost the horses back, do you use it to get it back, and then go back to "normal"? or is it ridden in consistently, no matter how generous the horse is being?


                                  lets say for the time being we are going to use pictures to judge this stuff.


                                  I know with every picture of a horse jumping, there is generally a flaw *somewhere*, i.e. legs not evenly tucked, a shoulder dropped, an improper release... so lets equivelate those "flaws" to the flaws seen in rk- hocks trailing, tense horse, "unhappy" horse, etc. so in the every now and then case that you do see a horse jumping perfectly, where is a picture showing a horse that is perfect and successfully benefiting from rk? that is using itself correctly, that isn't tense, etc. I would like to think that if rk is useful, it should relax the horse, no? This is so I can better understand it's application and results. not so I can go use it, so I can understand it.
                                  "Do you care, or don’t you care? Because if you do care, you better speak up now or take what you get."
                                  — Denny Emerson www.savethe3day.org
                                  **proud member of the trakehNERD group**

                                  Comment


                                  • If this is meant to be a commentary on cruelty to horses, then it's an incredibly passive-agressive approach and someone needs to be slapped. If it's meant to be funny, it sort of misses the mark in most pictures because they are pretty horrific falls for both the horse and the rider.

                                    I think either clarification is need (without comments saying people are just dense), if the author isn't just trying to get a rise out of people and stir an already angry hornets nest out here. If that's their desired goal, you will not see a clarification and must assume that they are getting what they wanted--and you might want to consider not feeding garage gnomes.

                                    BTW, garage gnomes thrive on ire.
                                    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                                    Comment


                                    • but velvet, i hath no ire!
                                      only confusion and want for an explanation- yet no one will give me one after posting the thing 3 times! either i got someone in a corner and they are avoiding it, or they are so busy dealing with the other ire that they are missing their opportunity to talk to someone who actually wants to discuss the matter!


                                      and let me say thanks for teaching me the word ire- well, inspiring me to look it up. I have never used the word before, and today my vocab has extended! something my college professors don't seem to be able to do sometimes! mucho gracias.
                                      "Do you care, or don’t you care? Because if you do care, you better speak up now or take what you get."
                                      — Denny Emerson www.savethe3day.org
                                      **proud member of the trakehNERD group**

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by slc2
                                        i get your point and i agree. i also have asked some really top notch eventers, 'how many all out events does a horse have in him?' and i get answers like 'one'. alot.
                                        I thought this quote was as amusing as nhwr's claim that Von Ziegner is and has been a proponent of rolkeur AKA zwangsjacke. Neither would hold water...
                                        "Dreams are the touchstone of our characters." Henry David Thoreau
                                        Touchstone Farm
                                        www.bytouchstonefarm.com

                                        Comment


                                        • Thanks to OP. You made my day.

                                          Originally posted by J Swan
                                          won't let me join because I hunt. Since I would have to give up shaving my legs and wearing deoderant - I'm ok with it.
                                          What are you hunting that involves shaving the legs and putting on deodorant?
                                          Veterinarians for Equine Welfare

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