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How can people train horses this way? It is abusive.

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  • Originally posted by slc2
    people are at this point not going to do that and get ripped another ******* and be called a horse killer abuser etc.
    Oh slc - more histrionics? You think people who dislike this method haven't been ripped apart as well? At least we're starting to have some discussion and questions - and you know what? When you don't start poking people with sharp sticks to get some attention there actually does seem to be some interesting stuff to read.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling

    Comment


    • Okay... I'm in... (pushes chips to center of table)

      Originally posted by kkj
      Blugal no I would agree that a lot of dressage horses do not make it to Grand Prix because the get injured or don't hold up. There are a lot of horses in all disciplines that have the talent, work ethic whatever but don't make it to the highest level because they get injured or don't hold up. Many many dressage horses will have hock problems, suspensorys, ring bone etc etc before they get to Grand Prix.

      I agree that some eventers don't make it because they have the wrong owner or are happy doing novice or whatever. Those things are not mutually exclusive. Some horses don't make it to advance because they have a crummy rider or one that is happy at novice and some don't make it due to injuries or not holding up. Some don't make it because they have a lot of talent but are chicken or because they have a ton of guts but are a klutz.
      Eventing is harder on the horses than dressage all other things being equal. That does not mean that it is abusive or you are a horrible person for participating.

      However, if you will not acknowledge the stress it puts on the horse or the risks associated with it, then you are just not being totally honest with the horse, yourself or the rest of us.
      I don't think lstephens is saying we eventers do not acknowledge the stress put on our horses or the risks. As a matter of fact since I've made the move to eventing from Hunter Jumper land I've never seen a group of horseman more focused on thier horses well being and safety. At our events and horse trials... The stewards check bits, spurs, whip length. Helmets must be regulation. Horse must have thier numbers on at all times and only ridden by the competitor. Technical Judges will pull any rider who is out of control or endangering or abusing their horse. (One of our riders dropped a crop before a down bank into water and went to encourage her horse down by using the reign with a little slap on the shoulder and was given a warning). You are not allowed to seesaw and yank on horses mouths.. no more than 3 hits. It is all very closely watched.

      After each performance horses are walked, cooled, wrapped... poulticed.. and this is all done by the competitor/rider. Everyone is hands on and knows every inch of their horses legs. On 3 days the horses are jogged before stadium for soundness. In classic long format the horses do roads and tracks and are tested for fitness and spun in the 10 minute box if they don't pass.

      Does that sound like a discipline that isn't aware that thier horses must be in the soundest condition to perform? No... we are aware of our discipline's risks... and have put many many checks and balances in place to limit those risks. Still accidents happen. As it did to Barbaro in racing. It's sad and unfortunate every single time. And I assure you No one looks the other way... drops their eyes and shakes their head. We pull together and ask if conditions could be better to avoid it next time... I've never been involved in any equine discipline that had such internal audits as this one.

      So as much as the eventing spills and thrills video's make good sport for those in other disciplines to snark at I can assure you event horses are some of the best cared for equine athletes in any discipline. I also have never seen sooo many senior citizens still competing well into thier twenties. I just congratulated a girl at Copper Meadows last weekend as we were getting pinned in the Training Divisions. She won 2nd in Junior Novice on her "ever young" 22 year old gelding. Here is a picture of him happily galloping through the water complex to his next jump

      https://www.capturedmomentphoto.com/...36-MG_8506.jpg

      I guarantee you... these horse WANT to do their job. All of our horses at my barn drag us on to the trailer to go to a show. They get walked, grazed and fussed over for 4 days of an event. And when they return they come back happy happy horses. I left the Hunter world because my horse was bored and HATED it. Moved to Jumpers where he was happy for a while.. but then got bored. Now he LOVES his job. How can I tell? He runs to the stall door, dives into his bit... and enthusiastically and longingly looks out to the cross country course on XC day... and when it's his turn to go into the box... he is sooo thrilled.. and bursts out of that box without any urging from me. He looks for each and every fence with a "hang on I got it" attitude. And when we finish his ears are up and he's just marching ready to do it again... That's how I know my horse loves his job. And that's why he is now an eventer.
      Judi
      RiverSong | Rainier

      http://gallery.me.com/judistewart#100045

      Comment


      • Judi-

        Welcome to the dark side!
        http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

        Comment


        • What right to dressage people have to critcize ANY discipline? We are one of the worst when it comes to lack of horsemanship. At least eventers ride outside of the ring, jump, cross train, etc. Dressage is just crank n spank. Look at the rollkur videos if you're not convinced.

          Comment


          • Now this is what I think is more comparable to the rk issue

            Originally posted by J Swan
            And shame on the people who consider Rollkur correct. It's about as correct as poling with a nail studded rail. Yep - those legs will come off the ground and that horse will win - but at what cost....
            JSwan... this is what I kept thinking as I was trying to find a comparison. Polling horses to jump with tighter knees. Sure it doesn't kill them. And boy do they jump tighter... does that make it right? Western horses have thier heads tied between thier legs in a stall for hours.. sure they have low low heads in Western Pleasure classes... does that make it right?

            These kind of training methods are a better comparison. A training method forced upon a horse that puts them into a position that causes them stress to create an unnatural reaction that makes them perform better.
            Judi
            RiverSong | Rainier

            http://gallery.me.com/judistewart#100045

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Judi
              Polling horses to jump with tighter knees. Sure it doesn't kill them. And boy do they jump tighter... does that make it right? Western horses have thier heads tied between thier legs in a stall for hours.. sure they have low low heads in Western Pleasure classes... does that make it right?

              These kind of training methods are a better comparison. A training method forced upon a horse that puts them into a position that causes them stress to create an unnatural reaction that makes them perform better.


              Yes, these are much more intelligent comparisons.
              http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lstevenson
                Judi-

                Welcome to the dark side!

                Oh and by the way lstevenson... you are now my official new hero.

                You go girl.

                : )

                LOVE the dark side....
                Judi
                RiverSong | Rainier

                http://gallery.me.com/judistewart#100045

                Comment


                • Originally posted by trailblazzer
                  What right to dressage people have to critcize ANY discipline? We are one of the worst when it comes to lack of horsemanship. At least eventers ride outside of the ring, jump, cross train, etc. Dressage is just crank n spank. Look at the rollkur videos if you're not convinced.
                  trailblather, your ignorance continues to be underwhelming. You judge the WHOLE sport of dressage based on those few that use this method with their horses? Most dressage riders I know hack out on trails, and some even jump. I'm a pretty die-hard dressage rider, and I've jumped my horse 4' 3" before. I took him out on trail once with 3 other "bomb-proof" QH's, and he (a TB) was the calmest one of the bunch. Try and engage a brain cell or two (if you have that many) before spouting off your garbage.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DressageGuy
                    trailblather, your ignorance continues to be underwhelming. You judge the WHOLE sport of dressage based on those few that use this method with their horses? Most dressage riders I know hack out on trails, and some even jump. I'm a pretty die-hard dressage rider, and I've jumped my horse 4' 3" before. I took him out on trail once with 3 other "bomb-proof" QH's, and he (a TB) was the calmest one of the bunch. Try and engage a brain cell or two (if you have that many) before spouting off your garbage.
                    DressageGay, please explain how dressage people are in a position to criticize other disciplines. My argument is that we should clean our own house first. Big lick looks delightful compared to what I see going on in the dressage world. Yet it is the dressage people who act like they are better than everyone. How gay.

                    Comment


                    • I'll ask again. These are totally honest questions, not with judgement in them. I don't want to attack anyone for the answers give. I want to know if anyone knows why Rolkur would ruin one horse's gaits and not another? Does it only work for some horses or what? Do any of you know whether Edward Gal uses Rolkur on Lingh? I think that horse has very pure gaits. Am I wrong about that?

                      I have a couple of honest Rolkur questions I am not an expert on gaits or dressage or Rolkur and I would like to get some honest feedback on theses questions.

                      1. How does Rolkur make the gaits more extravagent?
                      2. How come it does not seem to ruin the purity of all the horses gaits? I agree with Salinero and some of the others but not with Lingh. At the World Cup in Vegas his gaits seemed both pure and extravagent to me and two FEI trainers I was sitting with agreed. We all thought he should have won. I agree Brettina was correct but not extravagent and Salinero seemed not as correct and a bit tense. Does anyone else think that Lingh has very correct extravagent gaits? Does anyone know if Edward Gal uses Rolkur on him? I have seen pictures of him doing it with Gribaldi but not Lingh.

                      Comment


                      • Does it matter? Do we have to list all the dressage bads, and WP bads, and various other evils in this horse world? I agree with dressageGuy... who give a damn about rollkur? How many of us really use it? If you are a true horseman, you know where the bads are, you know whether the person is a real dressage rider the minute she/he opens her/his mouth... and there are plenty of people on this board doing all the preaching and teaching knowing next to nothing.

                        I remember there was a thread about how to ride a schoolmaster and I read one or two comments (and don't remember who that was), I am 100% sure their posters has never ridden a schoolmaster... 100% sure. It's not like I have ridden that many of them, I'm not ashamed to say I'm not that good at it either. But I did ride a couple of them in differnet parts of the world and they are all trained and ridden very similarly. You would be amazed.

                        All the dressage practitioners I know, Amateurs or professionals, training level or GP level, we share similar root. Very very few of us will call each other DQ's or call each other crank/spank... we know what works and what doesn't. There is a level of knowledge base that is widely accepted, and there are many variations on techniques. We don't bash each other: your way sucks! because I've seen different techniques work on different horses and riders. You know what to dis-regard cuz it's probably not a good thing.

                        Comment


                        • I have limited knowledge on RK. I don't practice it I don't believe in it. But based on what I read, I don't believe it improves the gait or makes the gait more extravagant, either intentioanlly or not. I have a slight suspision it suppresses hind movement (rather than promoting front) because of how any extreme flexing of the neck disconnects the horse and reduces throughness. I also have no knowledge of whether RK is supposed to be or has been a long term training tool that will produce long term gait changes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DressageGuy
                            First of all, you're judging the whole sport of dressage based on the actions of a few. 99% of us don't ride rollkur and never will. So that right there, leaves you with no leg to stand on. Again, you make VAST VAST generalizations because of what a few people do. Which, to my way of thinking, shows that you just have a problem with dressage in general, and judging from your other posts, I seem to be right on that. Please, show me some evidence that ALL of dressage is just crank and spank. I'll sit here wait forever, because there IS no evidence.
                            OK whatever. None of this changes the fact that dressage people are in NO position to criticize ANYONE. DQs looove to look down on other disciplines, all the while repeating that dressage is the one true way. OK, then how come "upper level" dressage is so horrid? Why are dressage horses so unsound? Why are they such nutcases? Why are the riders so incompetent? I guess dressage isn't as special as we were lead to believe...

                            Comment


                            • I dont either...

                              Originally posted by MyReality
                              I have limited knowledge on RK. I don't practice it I don't believe in it. But based on what I read, I don't believe it improves the gait or makes the gait more extravagant, either intentioanlly or not. I have a slight suspision it suppresses hind movement (rather than promoting front) because of how any extreme flexing of the neck disconnects the horse and reduces throughness. I also have no knowledge of whether RK is supposed to be or has been a long term training tool that will produce long term gait changes.
                              I have no idea because I still cannot get one person to tell me in all these RK threads, what the ultimate purpose of RK is. Why is it used, who decides what horses need it, and what is the end result supposed to be in the competition ring!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by trailblazzer
                                OK whatever. None of this changes the fact that dressage people are in NO position to criticize ANYONE. DQs looove to look down on other disciplines, all the while repeating that dressage is the one true way. OK, then how come "upper level" dressage is so horrid? Why are dressage horses so unsound? Why are they such nutcases? Why are the riders so incompetent? I guess dressage isn't as special as we were lead to believe...

                                You must have had some really horrible experiences with dressage to make such sweeping, ignorant generalizations. So you think horses like Brentina show "horrible" upper-level dressage? I could probably list off a dozen wonderfully trained/ridden horses at GP, and you'd still insist you're right. Dressage horses, if ridden and trained correctly, and being free from congenital defects, should not be unsound. I've never met a single upper-level horse (and I have met many) that was a "nutcase". Yes, some may be hotter than others, but not all are. What riders are incompetent? Would you consider Debbie, Guenter, Lisa, et al incompetent? You love to make sweeping generalizations and have absoluetly ZERO evidence to back it up. Though I guess looking back on your past posts, that's how you always operate, and I really shouldn't be surprised. Go back to your cave, troll.
                                Last edited by DressageGuy; Jun. 15, 2006, 11:30 PM.

                                Comment


                                • What the hell is the matter with you people?

                                  Rule #1: be nice, be polite, be respectful.

                                  Trailblazer just got a month's vacation from COTH for her antics, but DressageGuy, you're not much better. Stop telling people they're pulling stuff out of orifices and attempt to converse like an adult, please. And watch your mouth.

                                  Comment


                                  • I apologize, I tried to control my temper, but some things set me off.

                                    Comment


                                    • That's it, Dressage Guy!!!! You are now suspended and must stay after school and write "I promise to be courteous, even to the morons. I promise to be courteous, even to the morons." 500 times on the blackboard, using good penmanship too! White chalk only, none of the colored stuff!

                                      Comment


                                      • poopoo, do you, for some odd reason, think "be nice, be polite, be respectful" does NOT apply to you?

                                        Comment


                                        • " have no idea because I still cannot get one person to tell me in all these RK threads, what the ultimate purpose of RK is. Why is it used, who decides what horses need it, and what is the end result supposed to be in the competition ring"

                                          sannois, could you please stop insisting on this? it isn't true. at this point, you're simply saying something that is, well, entirely false. you have been told dozens of times, but you choose not to listen, and then say no one told you. actually, you've been saying that for quite a few months now. does saying that ..ah.... DO something for you?

                                          however, MOST of the 'reasons' given for doing this are no more than horse****. i do have to admit that, but the reasons given that are horse****, aren't the reasons given by the people who actually know anything about rollkur. MOST people know very little about rollkur. a starry eyed student of nicole uphoffs told me rollkur would be MARVELOUS for my horse and i'd love it, when i told someone more aware of the technique, she said absolutely not, don't be doing that now or it's going to turn into a mess, that has to wait til a, b and c are resolved.

                                          it isn't done to subjugate the horse and it isn't done to make him obedient, and it isn't done because women aren't as strong as men, and it isn't done to make the horse settle down.

                                          slc

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