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How can people train horses this way? It is abusive.

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  • Originally posted by kkj

    J Swan, you really dislike me don't ya?
    It would be fair to say I don't understand you.


    blugal - you're right. When I evented I had my horse insured with Marshall and Sterling - - ironically - the whole time we were out galumphing across various weeny courses - the only claim he had was an impaction colic. In the dead of winter.

    Most claims are still colic and laminitis - and unless things have changed - those are still the leading cause of death in horses. But if I'm wrong - please correct me.

    I'd rather engage in a sport that conducts exhaustive and intense analysis of the welfare of horse at every level and every event - than engage in a sport in which questionable methods are not subjected to the same intense scrutiny to ensure the welfare of the horse is paramount.

    Heck - people get eliminated in warm up for accidentally jumping a warm up fence the wrong way. And any suspected abuse or questionable actions are reported to stewards. You're done. That's it. Take your toys and go home.

    Perhaps it's time the sport of dressage did the same thing. I don't think it's as noble and art as it holds itself out to be.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling

    Comment


    • It isnt anymore thats for sure!!!

      Not with Rollkur out for all to see.. Oh well except the recesses of the training barns!
      Perhaps it's time the sport of dressage did the same thing. I don't think it's as noble and art as it holds itself out to be.

      Comment


      • Yes...

        Originally posted by lstevenson
        short strided-

        Is your horse ok?
        He is actually doing very well. Nothing was fractured. And all of the swelling in his neck has gone down. The day after the accident he looked like a snake that had swallowed an egg.

        He will get a check up next week. I am anticipating much chiropratic work in the future...

        Comment


        • If putting the horse in a situation where an injury is possible is ABUSE, then putting a horse in a trailer, or out in the field where he may be kicked and seriously injured is also ABUSE
          I'm sure I'm sending you round and round the banana tree. Bear with me. I disagree with the first premise... that putting a horse in a situation where an injury is possible is abuse. I can't buy that argument, so it will be hard to buy any conclusions made from it.

          Any injury to a horse does not always constitute abuse. And abuse doesn't always have to injure a horse physically. I think tying the horse's head to his tail over night or tying his head to cinderblock over night to tire his neck is abusive, but it probably doesn't hurt him physically. In other words, abuse does not always mean injury and injury does not always mean abuse.

          As I've said before, I don't believe eventing is abusive and I don't believe rollkur is abusive, although both can be abused. I disagree with the OP's title that eventing is abusive.

          But there is a big distinction in probability rather than possibility.

          Certainly the risk of injury is higher in eventing than in standing around a pasture given the odds, the number of times we put our horses in a pasture vs. the number of times we event.

          I think your questions really hit the heart of this discussion.

          Are you saying this is not so, because the risk of injury is higher? If so, then who makes the call on where to draw the line?
          If an injury is probable doing anything with a horse, something needs to change, whether we call it abuse, neglect, cruelty, mistreatment or simple misuse. Who makes the call? My easy answer is that every rider makes an individual decision of where the line is and when they have crossed it. But, people don't always self-moderate so well, so the governing bodies of the sport step in.

          I think many of the dressage riders are dis-satisfied with the FEI's "study" of rollkur. They want to see changes made, but it isn't happening at the upper levels or by conventional channels, because it wins. So, the grass roots movement will continue to grow and we will continue to see rollkur discussions on these boards. I think the anti-rollkur people are going down the wrong road calling rollkur abuse.

          I think if we look at the training impact on the purity of the gaits, then rollkur would no longer win. If dressage judges would judge the purity of the gaits instead of the extravagance of the gaits, things would turn over quickly. But instead, the FEI dressage committee has committed an atrocity, giving judges poetic license to judge horses on "HAPPINESS," a clear anthropomorphism, a totally subjective judging standard, and one of the biggest loads of happy horse s**t to come down the pike in a long time. I'm sure their intentions were good, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Now we have Sjeff Jansen bragging about the Awards for Happiness he has won using his rollkur methods. It makes me very sad.
          Kathy Johnson

          Comment


          • Interesting Points Kathy!

            Originally posted by Kathy Johnson
            I think if we look at the training impact on the purity of the gaits, then rollkur would no longer win. If dressage judges would judge the purity of the gaits instead of the extravagance of the gaits, things would turn over quickly.
            Now, if we could move the discussion toward the training impact of RK on the purity of gaits; and the direction the Dressage discipline seems to be moving...

            Comment


            • [QUOTE=Kathy Johnson

              I think many of the dressage riders are dis-satisfied with the FEI's "study" of rollkur. They want to see changes made, but it isn't happening at the upper levels or by conventional channels, because it wins. So, the grass roots movement will continue to grow and we will continue to see rollkur discussions on these boards. I think the anti-rollkur people are going down the wrong road calling rollkur abuse.

              I think if we look at the training impact on the purity of the gaits, then rollkur would no longer win. If dressage judges would judge the purity of the gaits instead of the extravagance of the gaits, things would turn over quickly. But instead, the FEI dressage committee has committed an atrocity, giving judges poetic license to judge horses on "HAPPINESS," a clear anthropomorphism, a totally subjective judging standard, and one of the biggest loads of happy horse s**t to come down the pike in a long time. I'm sure their intentions were good, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Now we have Sjeff Jansen bragging about the Awards for Happiness he has won using his rollkur methods. It makes me very sad.[/QUOTE]

              Agreed.

              It may be a stretch to call Rollkur outright abuse - in the criminal sense - but the extremes seen are simply inappropriate. I'm hoping the FEI just comes out and says, in black and white - what is permitted and what is not. I don't care for the hemming and hawing and "happiness" stuff.
              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
              -Rudyard Kipling

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kathy Johnson
                I disagree with the first premise... that putting a horse in a situation where an injury is possible is abuse. I can't buy that argument, so it will be hard to buy any conclusions made from it.

                Well, so do I!!! That has been my point all along.

                But certain ignorant people have been saying that because of the risk of injury, x-c is abusive. And I was just giving other examples, so that common sense would hopefully prevail (but I guess with a few individuals, common sense is a bit too much to hope for).
                http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                Comment


                • Kathy Johnson, very well thought out and well written. Totally agreed here.

                  I have a couple of honest Rolkur questions I am not an expert on gaits or dressage or Rolkur and I would like to get some honest feedback on theses questions.

                  1. How does Rolkur make the gaits more extravagent?
                  2. How come it does not seem to ruin the purity of all the horses gaits? I agree with Salinero and some of the others but not with Lingh. At the World Cup in Vegas his gaits seemed both pure and extravagent to me and two FEI trainers I was sitting with agreed. We all thought he should have won. I agree Brettina was correct but not extravagent and Salinero seemed not as correct and a bit tense. Does anyone else think that Lingh has very correct extravagent gaits? Does anyone know if Edward Gal uses Rolkur on him? I have seen pictures of him doing it with Gribaldi but not Lingh.

                  Comment


                  • "ignorant people " = "disagrees with lstevenson"

                    if you do, prepare to be called names.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by slc2
                      "ignorant people " = "disagrees with lstevenson"

                      if you do, prepare to be called names.

                      Hello pot, meet kettle...

                      Comment


                      • aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaagh!

                        Please stop, although that last comment was funny which is always good.

                        Comment


                        • It works both ways...

                          Originally posted by slc2
                          "ignorant people " = "disagrees with lstevenson"

                          if you do, prepare to be called names.
                          slc! You people do the EXACT same thing! You cant have your cake and eat it too!

                          Comment


                          • LOL Dressage Guy!

                            Originally posted by DressageGuy
                            Hello pot, meet kettle...
                            You beat me to it!!!

                            Comment


                            • Of fer chrissakes, slc - go take some Prozac and start another thread whining about how only one point of view is allowed on the forum so you can be the center of attention. Why does it gall you so much that there might possibly be some sort of consensus developing????? Never mind - don't answer that.
                              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                              -Rudyard Kipling

                              Comment


                              • Look, we all know slc is nothing but a keyboard jockey. Oodles of advice, but is only friendly if you agree with HER methods. Never posted one original thought that I've ever seen.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by slc2
                                  "ignorant people " = "disagrees with lstevenson"

                                  if you do, prepare to be called names.

                                  Actually, slc "ignorant" means that they are showing a lack of knowledge and understanding about the subject. Which there has been a lot of by a few certain people on this thread. People shouldn't make statements about things they don't understand.
                                  http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                                  Comment


                                  • i have found that anyone who actually asks a genuine question about rk goes ignored. i posted mine 3 times and gave up, and no one has responded to kkj. YOU HAVE YOUR CHANCE TO STAND BEHIND RK BY TELLING US, and yet you don't. that tells me you've got nothing to stand behind the genuine questions we've asked.

                                    *sigh*

                                    if you want to go ahead and tell me i'm abusive for eventing my horse, go ahead. I'd rather be an abusive eventer than an abusive dressage rider. at least my horse and I are having more fun.
                                    "Do you care, or don’t you care? Because if you do care, you better speak up now or take what you get."
                                    — Denny Emerson www.savethe3day.org
                                    **proud member of the trakehNERD group**

                                    Comment


                                    • people are at this point not going to do that and get ripped another ******* and be called a horse killer abuser etc.

                                      Comment


                                      • I have asked...

                                        Originally posted by bigdreamer
                                        i have found that anyone who actually asks a genuine question about rk goes ignored. i posted mine 3 times and gave up, and no one has responded to kkj. YOU HAVE YOUR CHANCE TO STAND BEHIND RK BY TELLING US, and yet you don't. that tells me you've got nothing to stand behind the genuine questions we've asked.

                                        *sigh*

                                        if you want to go ahead and tell me i'm abusive for eventing my horse, go ahead. I'd rather be an abusive eventer than an abusive dressage rider. at least my horse and I are having more fun.
                                        a specific Question about the Videos on the other two threads numerous times, and am flatly ignored. BUT I think I got my answer on one of them and it sure tells alot..

                                        Comment


                                        • slc, are you saying that in response to me? I posted my questions first back on page 8? I think. I would not personally rip anyone a new ********, ever. unless they tried to personally take a gun to my horses head I came onto this thread trying to UNDERSTAND, and then nobody, not one person, tried to answer my questions. then they started saying eventing is abusive, and it went off topic from there. The only reason I, at this point, think rk might be bad is because noone has tried to show me the good side or answer my questions. At the beginning of this thread I had no opinion b/c i've never dealt with it before.


                                          so why won't someone try to use facts here to defend rk, inspite of getting torn a new *****? they seem to be fine with getting torn a new ****** by calling us eventers abusive. what could it hurt to try and stand up?
                                          "Do you care, or don’t you care? Because if you do care, you better speak up now or take what you get."
                                          — Denny Emerson www.savethe3day.org
                                          **proud member of the trakehNERD group**

                                          Comment

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