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How can people train horses this way? It is abusive.

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  • Originally posted by sm
    But then, if someone doesn't distinguish between an ACCIDENT and PLANNED ABUSE, then I can see where they would have a problem with the concept of JUSTIFY.


    Yeah, I am having a hard time figuring out how anyone is unable to see the difference.

    Or if they think that any situation we put a horse in that puts him in danger of having an accident is abuse, how they think that trailering a horse, or turning a horse out in the field where other horses might kick him and break his leg, is not abusive.
    http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

    Comment


    • Originally posted by kkj
      Claire, I would never ever hope for anyone to get hurt- horses, people or otherwise. I just sometimes hope that some people will get a little embarrassment and dirty breeches for things they do to win that aren't very nice. It is more of a figurative butt bucked off than an actual one. I can't help it. I like to see the horses get a little revenge sometimes.

      I still really don't think it is much harder to defend Rolkur than the risk of injury in eventing, caning, drugging, whatever western people are doing today whatever. It is just a matter of perspective. We all have our favorite wrongs we would like righted or abuses that think absolutely black and white are totally completely unacceptable. Until horses learn to speak we can blow hot air and talk and circles, say nothing and justify anything.
      You wish harm on other people to justify your moral superiority? Do you moonlight as an abortion clinic bomber - because you sure sound like the type of person who would harm others to score a point on your own personal morality chart.

      You're really creeping me out. I don't recall anyone asking you to hold a catharsis session.
      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
      -Rudyard Kipling

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        Lots of option, not many facts

        Many hold the opinion that RK is abusive. Many who think that way don't really know more about it than the photos they see on the net. The FEI has conducted an investigation the outcome of which says, though more info is needed, it doesn't seem to be a problem for the horse. It may be your opinion that the technique is abusive. That doesn't make it so. Getting more infomation would seem to be a good thing.

        An accident is an unplanned or unforseen event. What happened in the photos I posted could be forseen. The constant safety studies, reviews, regulations and procedures (which I applaud) are an implicit admission of this. IMO, that means it is hard to justify them by calling them accidents. Just as you all are allowed to have opinions about rk, others are allowed to have opinions about this. And unless you are a member of the Taliban, we don't have to agree.

        There have been a lot of other justifications (many of them false) offered on this thread; it isn't really that dangerous, the horses like it, not many horses die. Please. This is silly. It is dangerous. Isn't that why all the adrenalin junkies like it? Does that make it abusive? Maybe. I don't happen to believe it. But a case could certainly be made that it does.

        There seems to a concensus among several poster that if you don't agree with their perspective you are ignorant, a troll or full of it. Those are the unsophisticated tactics of someone with an insecure position. That makes polite discussion tough sometimes. But if polite discussion is what you really want, try to stick to it. We'd all probably be happier and the level of discussion might actually rise
        See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

        Comment


        • What irks me about your "discussion" is the title of this thread. You classify the crash photos as ABUSIVE TRAINING methods. Excuse me, but people don't "train" their horses to fall on x-country. I certainly don't teach my horse how to trip and fall over a jump. You don't seem to be understanding this.

          Second, you said those crashes in the photos were forseen so they aren't accidents. Well, lets see. I drove through an intersection this morning with lots of roadwork going on. I could easily "foresee" somebody running a red-light because of brake failure and sideswiping my car. Yet, that would have been an ACCIDENT. A horse could have easily taken a mistep because of clumsiness and fallen on a x-country jump. That's forseeable, yet it's an ACCIDENT.

          I ask you, do you ride nhwr? If so, than what you are doing is abusive in your logic, because ANY HORSE in ANY SPORT can crash, fall, and get hurt so bad he has to be put down. Stats of which sport has the most falls, injuries, deaths, etc doesn't mean anything because ALL sports carry risks with it.

          I personally agree with the others and think this thread should be taken to the eventing forum since posting it on the dressage board was a total cop out...it has nothing to do with dressage, and why not have this "discussion" with those who know the sport of eventing inside and out.
          <3 Vinnie <3
          1992-2010
          Jackie's Punt ("Bailey") My Finger Lakes Finest Thoroughbred

          Comment


          • Originally posted by nhwr
            An accident is an unplanned or unforseen event. What happened in the photos I posted could be forseen.



            There seems to a concensus among several poster that if you don't agree with their perspective you are ignorant, a troll or full of it. Those are the unsophisticated tactics of someone with an insecure position.


            nhwr, it's so funny that YOU would accuse others of unsophisticated tactics and an INSECURE POSITION! When you are the one that doesn't have a leg to stand on. Many posters have come back with intelligent comebacks to your rediculus claims, and questions to your warped way of thinking. And you have had NO ANSWERS. You just avoid the questions.

            For the record, it's only if you or anyone else say absurd things that are absolutely not true that we call you ignorant or full of it. And OF COURSE you are a troll. Why else would you have started this whole thing. No good can come of it. Almost no one agrees with ANYTHING you have to say about this subject. I would say YOU have a very insecure position.


            An example of a logical question that you dodged is :

            If you think a fall on x-c is not an accident because it could be forseen, what about when someone hits you with their car when you're driving? Cars hit cars on the road thousands and thousands of times every day. It is certainly forseen that this will eventually happen to you. Is this NOT AN ACCIDENT?
            http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

            Comment


            • No I don't work for Operation Rescue or feel morally superior to most people. Again I do not wish harm on anyone just a little humbling event. I would feel awful if anyone got hurt. Furthermore, I would never cause an event like that to happen. I am no where near a saint but I am not satan either.

              If no one out there has seen someone do something like kick a dog and thought to themselves, "I wish the dog would bite that guy on the ass" well then I guess I am just a lot more evil than the rest of you. I gotta admit I have thoughts like that. I don't want to take a sling shot and shoot the horse on the butt so someone gets bucked off and I don't want them to get hurt. Haven't all of you had unscheduled dismounts in your life where you felt no pain but just a little embarrassment or appreciation for the big powerful horse that unseated you?


              Eventing a horse is exposing it to a risk above and beyond the risk that other horses are exposed to in the course of training and competing in other disciplines (I am not including racing in here but dressage, show jumping, western events what have you.) Can someone who has an event horse insured for mortality tell me what their rate is? I just bet it is higher than dressage horses because lightbulb eventing is more dangerous. The chance of a horse getting injured on hard uneven footing at a high rate of speed over solid fences is higher than the dressage horse in the rubber arena.

              All competitive horses are exposed to trailering risks. Hopefully all horses are exposed to the risks of turnout (I know somepeople never turn the poor horse out) This does not make the risk they are exposed to by eventing less. I mean if you blow second hand smoke in your kids face it is not less risky because your husband is slipping bourbon in the kids milk and that is more likely to kill the kid first. I don't know what the risk of accidents or death is in trailering horses. I really have no idea of that. This is a risk that all competitive horses are exposed to however and not a risk above and beyond the risk other riding horses must endure. If a horse is trailered only as often as it runs cross country, which one has a risk of injury of death that is higher? Does anyone know this? I have never in 30 years of owning horses had one get injured or killed in a trailer. I know we can paint a reality where trailering horses in abusive after all there is danger in it and many horses don't enjoy it. That argument is just too tenuous for me.

              I did totally follow the logic of nwhr argument. Eventing accidents can be painted as abuse under the same criteria as rolkur can. In the course of riding horses for our selfish gain the horse suffers pain which is either deliberate or reasonably foreseeable.


              The argument that horses are exposed to risks everyday in the pasture or in the trailer or of colic or whatever, so the risk of eventing is insignificant or acceptable does not fly with me. It is just an excuse to justify exposing the horse to the risk of eventing.

              Again I think it is fine for people to choose to event a horse. I think it is amazing to watch a talented event team. Still I realize that statistically that rider and horse is more likely to get injured or die in the course of riding than I am with my dressage horse trotting across the diagonal. This does not make me better, morally superior or anything like that. It just makes me safer and a lot more wimpy. Which I know I am.

              Comment


              • Quote:
                Originally Posted by kkj
                However, if you will not acknowledge the stress it puts on the horse or the risks associated with it, then you are just not being totally honest with the horse, yourself or the rest of us.



                "What about the stress and associated risks involved with putting a horse in a trailer and going 70 mph on the interstate? EXPLAIN TO ME how that's different."


                kkj- Please answer this question.

                If you think that trailer accidents don't happen EVERY DAY, or that horses don't get put down EVERY DAY because a horse kicked them in the field and broke their leg, you are, once again, showing your ignorance.
                http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                Comment


                • [quote=nhwr] The FEI has conducted an investigation the outcome of which says, though more info is needed, it doesn't seem to be a problem. [quote]

                  nhwr, I am sorry; I am having difficulty understanding the way you continue to represent the FEI WORKSHOP and it's findings.
                  First, it was a workshop not a clinical or scientific study. Any conclusions drawn could not be respected as scientific proven fact.

                  Second, the conclusions drawn by the FEI are frankly stated with many qualifiers (ie. "In experienced hands" "not held for prolonged periods" )

                  So, when the FEI starts coaching it's "conclusions" with that many qualifiers...mmm,appears to me that they don't want to be holding the bag if RK does become a PR problem. Which gives ME pause in trying to understand this method/exercise.



                  [quote=nhwr]
                  An accident is an unplanned or unforseen event. What happened in the photos I posted could be forseen. The constant safety studies, reviews, regulations and procedures (which I applaud) are an implicit admission of this. IMO, that means it is hard to justify them by calling them accidents. Just as you all are allowed to have opinions about rk, others are allowed to have opinions about this. And unless you are a member of the Taliban, we don't have to agree. [quote]

                  I am not a member of the Taliban All I am asking is: what your point is? You seem to keep changing your mind: irony/humor/all disciplines have ugly moments/any type of equestrian activity is abuse...

                  And now the eventing accidents you posted could have been foreseen therefore are NOT accidents and so follows are no worse than a training method the FEI doesn't come straight out and condemn?

                  Am I understanding correctly?

                  Comment


                  • kkj, I get it. You're a fearful rider and stay in the arena out of guilt and fear - and therefore assume that if we are not like you - that we do not care for our horses as much as you do - because otherwise we'd stay in the arena like you.

                    I finally realize that you are in a completely different world than us. It takes all kinds to make a world - but here is a quote to ponder - I think you're in the "gray twilight" the author mentions:


                    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those spirits who neither enjoy victory nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."

                    and for nhwr - you're manipulating the truth again, naughty girl. It is impossible to eliminate accidents. One can only do as much as possible to MINIMIZE them. Nothing the sport of eventing has done could possibly be interpreted to mean that they believed accidents would end.

                    And for the millionth time - take it to the eventing forum - but you know - I don't think you will. You're a coward too.
                    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                    -Rudyard Kipling

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by kkj
                      Again I think it is fine for people to choose to event a horse. I think it is amazing to watch a talented event team. Still I realize that statistically that rider and horse is more likely to get injured or die in the course of riding than I am with my dressage horse trotting across the diagonal. This does not make me better, morally superior or anything like that. It just makes me safer and a lot more wimpy. Which I know I am.
                      Don't assume you are any safer doing flat work. One month ago I was cantering my horse in the arena when he suddenly lost his footing, flipped over and landed with his head and neck pinned beneath him to the side... he proceeded to lay in this position for what felt like an eternity. He did eventually extract his head and get up. I consider the fact that he did not snap his neck in half to be a miracle.

                      The footing was great, it was a beautiful day and we were just hacking around. We had an accident.

                      Comment


                      • And according to COTH, Heike Kemmer and Bonaparte at the Aachen CDIO couldn't compete due to an injury suffered that Monday.

                        Oh - maybe it was a trailering accident - so wait - is that an accident? Or abuse. Or is it abuse if the injury occured during warm up - or in the stall - or what. Does it matter if a man was riding or a woman? We seem to have such fluid and convenient definitions of abuse....

                        and kkj - this really bothers me:

                        Haven't all of you had unscheduled dismounts in your life where you felt no pain but just a little embarrassment or appreciation for the big powerful horse that unseated you?


                        You know - I always have appreciation for the fact that I am on a big powerful horse. Falls hurt, and they are frightening; and they affect the confidence of the rider AND the horse.
                        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                        -Rudyard Kipling

                        Comment


                        • Stop now, this is all getting very silly and makes no sense.

                          Comment


                          • oh for heaven's sake, fiona, you actually find this to be silly or make no sense??????

                            "because you sure sound like the type of person who would harm others to score a point on your own personal morality chart."

                            hxf, i realize this was not directed at fiona. i am merely making a JOKE, and actually, agreeing with fiona, that this makes no sense and is silly.
                            Last edited by slc2; Jun. 13, 2006, 10:01 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Umm, I don't think it was fiona dear...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by short strided
                                Don't assume you are any safer doing flat work. One month ago I was cantering my horse in the arena when he suddenly lost his footing, flipped over and landed with his head and neck pinned beneath him to the side... he proceeded to lay in this position for what felt like an eternity. He did eventually extract his head and get up. I consider the fact that he did not snap his neck in half to be a miracle.

                                The footing was great, it was a beautiful day and we were just hacking around. We had an accident.
                                short strided-

                                Is your horse ok?
                                http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by fiona
                                  Stop now, this is all getting very silly and makes no sense.
                                  I'll agree with you there.
                                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                  -Rudyard Kipling

                                  Comment


                                  • Short strided, sorry to hear about that. Hope you are both OK. I know you can have an accident anywhere. I have had a horse fall on me in an arena too. Still it is much more likely to happen on a cross country horse, athletic ability of the horse and skill of the rider being equal.

                                    J Swan, you really dislike me don't ya? I don't think falls are silly or something. I have fallen off of a horse before and not been hurt and just gotten up, dusted myself off and got back on. If you haven't done that for awhile, it will put things back into perspective a little. I have also been bucked off in an arena and been hurt, didn't think that was funny either. I am not saying that you need to get bucked off to respect the horse just that it can be a good reality check sometimes.

                                    I like your poem. I admit I am wimpier than a lot of event riders. I am afraid of big cross country courses. Give me a good capable horse and a training level course and I am game. I am not as wimpy as a lot of people. I have started a lot of horses myself, done extreme skiing, and jumped a stadium courses up to 4'6". I am afraid of flying and swimming in the ocean and I prefer jumps that fall down. On balance I think I have had a pretty full adventursome life thus far but I am sure some people who have well executed an advanced event course have me beat big time here.

                                    Lstevenson, I have made all the arguments I can for the trailering senario. I realize they are not super strong arguments and you have a point. I will just again say that eventing exposes the horse to additional risk for the benefit of the rider. I don't know what the risk is in compared to trailering and I will not make up statistics. Again what is the average rate of mortality insurance for an event horse? I think dressage horses are like 3%. Again I admit with the trailering senario you have made a valid point and reassert again, I don't think eventing is abusive.

                                    Perhaps it would have been better if nhwrs original argument showed horses not crashing but merely having hard rubs on the fences. Event horses hit and slide over the fences all the time. I don't think it normally hurts them but they gotta feel it some. The eventers know it is going to happen as they boot up and grease the horse for it. I don't think it is abuse in anyway but it can't be fun like a massage or something. Maybe Rolkur is just like that, a little uncomfortable thing horses endure in the course of their work at the hands of people.

                                    I don't know if Rolkur is long term damaging. I would like more research of course. I do think it is less abusive than a lot of things we do to horses. It is not pretty and I don't like it. I don't know however what it accomplishes or if it truly works (seems to in Ankys case) or whatever.

                                    Comment


                                    • Take it to the eventing forum? Why? The one thing that I am ABSOLUTELY positive of is that the eventers are perfectly capable of reading the dressage board and cross posting to this thread if they feel like it. In fact, they've done it before. But you probably aren't going to get more than a shrug, and a "yep, it's dangerous." I think that's why they aren't responding as you'd like.

                                      Most of the eventers I know and coach fully understand the risks, the odds, and the dangers. They don't deny them; it's part of the glory of the sport. I too am having trouble following of all of these non sequiturs. What are people trying to say? If you are trying to promote eventing, talking about its safety record probably isn't the best way. Comparing the risk of galloping x-country to leaving a horse in a pasture or putting a horse on a trailer is an insult to eventers.
                                      Kathy Johnson

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Kathy Johnson
                                        Comparing the risk of galloping x-country to leaving a horse in a pasture or putting a horse on a trailer is an insult to eventers.

                                        Huh?!? An insult how?

                                        Once again I will try to explain. If putting the horse in a situation where an injury is possible is ABUSE, then putting a horse in a trailer, or out in the field where he may be kicked and seriously injured is also ABUSE.

                                        Are you saying this is not so, because the risk of injury is higher? If so, then who makes the call on where to draw the line?
                                        http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                                        Comment


                                        • Eventers Mortality insurance rate

                                          I had my upper level event horse insured for mortality at 3% for the years he did Training-Intermediate and FEI events.

                                          Your argument doesn't hold water, kkj.
                                          Blugal

                                          You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

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