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Horses For Life - Rollkur Issue

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  • #21
    Why not take that road?
    It is interesting to me how these questions are always framed in the vein of "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

    Perhaps because what someone (who has a clear agenda) chooses to display on a website in highly manipulative and imbalanced way isn't even a blip on their radar screen. Or perhaps if they did protest, they be met with the rejoinder of "If there is nothing wrong with this, what is your problem us displaying it?" which we hear frequently. Or perhaps the riders who use this technique successfully are busy riding. Is there an upside in responding for them? I don't see it.

    If the intent of this and many other websites is to inform, the subject would be presented is a straightforward and balanced manner. But the intent isn't to inform. It is to inflame. I have a hard time responding seriously to that.

    If you like to have your opinions spoon fed to you, carry on.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      so, if this is all split seconds in time.... what about the videos that show it at length? what about the fact that in the background of these "moments in time" the other horses are all in similar positions?

      Comment


      • #23
        RK proponents try this for a "bit" of rational discourse..tuck your chin to your chest and run around the arena just one time then tell me how you feel!! Basic anatomy and physiology will show you that the position is just wrong for a horse. Yes it gets results but at what price does the horse pay in the long run??

        Comment


        • #24
          Rollkur, hyperflaxion, zwanesjacke, what ever you want to call it, .....There is no debate........IT IS UGLY.
          "The well being of a horse should never be compromised for the ego of a human" dlg 06

          http://qualitytack4sale.webs.com/

          Comment


          • #25
            mjs,

            I just got out of the shower that I think I can say with relative certainty that my anatomy and physiology differ significantly from my horses'. I would probably find it excruiating to be saddled up and trot around an arena on all fours with weight on my back in any fashion. Your logic suggests that since most people are comfortable walking around on 2 legs, that would feel pretty good to a horse. I doubt it. Or that since horses like to walk around all day on 4 legs with their heads down, grazing we'd enjoy that too.

            The FEI has done some preliminary studies that conclude that horses do not seem to be stressed or harmed by this way of riding. They (the FEI) acknowledge more data is needed. But even without further study I think it is safe to conclude that I am not a horse and a horse is not a human. To think that what one species feels the other will too is foolish.
            See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

            Comment


            • #26
              "This is a website devoted to manipulation of images , deceit in reporting,"

              how are the images manipulated? if, indeed, they are photoshopped somehow to exaggerate the angles of the curb, or to put one horse's head on another's body, or to change the horse's eyes, or to put a different rider on a horse, then that would be deplorable.

              if you have some indication that this is the case, please describe it, and i will be among the first to condemn that website.

              sice you are arguing that the images are manipulated, are you agreeing that they are disturbing?

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by nhwr
                Perhaps because what someone (who has a clear agenda) chooses to display on a website in highly manipulative and imbalanced way isn't even a blip on their radar screen. Or perhaps if they did protest, they be met with the rejoinder of "If there is nothing wrong with this, what is your problem us displaying it?" which we hear frequently. Or perhaps the riders who use this technique successfully are busy riding. Is there an upside in responding for them? I don't see it.

                No, sorry, I was unclear. Why, when SJ has threatened to sue Theresa Sandin, among others, for publishing those pictures, did he not say they were manipulated if they were? It would be a much better argument for demanding their suppression than "cause I want to".

                But of course there is an upside to respond to manipulated pictures. In fact it's everyone's duty to do so and it would be incomprehensible if the riders didn't. The only reason they haven't done so is - you know it - that the pictures are real. And yes, disturbing.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by nhwr

                  To think that what one species feels the other will too is foolish.
                  And that is how we humans justify a lot of whats done to animals!!

                  Basic anatomy is basic anatomy....our air ways are built very much the same as equine:
                  Nose/Mouth for air intake
                  Larynx/Treachea for transport to the lungs
                  Its basic...nothing suggested...place a sharp bend in the air way and airflow to the lungs is decreased/restricted!!

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I don't think anyone can deny that the images are disturbing, they are. In the other hand if I will be with a camera in the sidelines of any show here in the US, I can get a lot of disturbing images, starting from bad riding, riders that should not be riding and taking a picture in a bad moment (which always happens).

                    I think it will be important to be able to see a video of one of those warm-up arenas, so everyone, can give an opinion after seeing the bigger picture. Maybe that will help undertsand this parctice or maybe it will help confirm why you are against it, i don't know, but for sure will give everyone a more solid base of analysis.

                    WHo can publish a picture can publish a video. Who rides in a public competition can't demand their video not to be shared by the media.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      For those who would like to see rollkur in action, Dr.Ulrike Thiel has made a set of DVDs available for non-commercial use. Here is the information on how they can be ordered: http://www.hippocampus-nl.com/s2e.php?content_id=353

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        And that is how we humans justify a lot of whats done to animals!!
                        That doesn't invalidate the idea. In the study conducted by the FEI, which was conducted by vets from both sides of the issue, the initial findings don't bear out your claim.

                        The equine airway is different from a human's. It wrapped by the muscles of the neck. It much longer than a human's making changes in bend less significant. Additionally with this technique, the points of the most dramatic flexion are at the poll and jaw which wouldn't impact breathing efficiency at all.

                        Having worked with someone who used this techique very well on one of my horses, I never observed my horse struggling to breath. What I did observe was a rapid and dramatic improvement in correct muscle development all over, a horse with improved attitude towards work (because she now had the muscle to support better the work). She loved working for this rider. She sure didn't act like a horse that was being tortured.
                        See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          there is also video on the horses for life web site of rollkur in action. there is a small clip that can be viewed by anyone and a longer, 5 minute clip that can be viewed for subscribers.

                          edited to add that actually, if you read the entire report from the Rollkur meeting you will read that many people were not saying that rollkur in not harmful - there are even vets that are reporting that their findings were not reported correclty. ie: the FEI made it seem like there was no real dissent when in fact there was plenty.

                          and there is also plenty of information out there for anyone to make an informed decision. many vet studies on various aspects of hyperflexion, altho none were explicity called that.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Jswan

                            Peaking a horse does not happen in one warm up! (though I have seen it happen in America with whipping a horse profusely before going down the center line, or galloping, hard, around the show grounds just before test time) It is about knowing your horse over a long period of time, the way you train (work days, hacking days) the way you feed them, and the tweaking of fitness, over a long period of time, to find that illusive place between relaxation and tension.
                            www.stfrancispetmedals.com

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              yup: dressage, the return of freedom for the horse. Harmony, for horse and rider.

                              Thankyou, OP. Thankyou, J Swan. Somehow the FEI has no definition for this exercise, since it calls RK anything at all behind the vertical. My dollars in dressage is for support of this ???


                              ***
                              post 33: "Peaking a horse does not happen in one warm up! (though I have seen it happen in America with whipping a horse profusely before going down the center line, or galloping, hard, around the show grounds just before test time) "

                              And what happened when you reported this to show management -- of course you reported it right? Took some photos so the rider could be suspended? Was the rider asked to leave and not come back, because that's happened before. Funny -- there's nothing anywhere that says the description you give is PROPER WARM-UP. Unlike the FEIs ruling on RK. wake-up !!!!

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                "If the intent of this and many other websites is to inform, the subject would be presented is a straightforward and balanced manner. But the intent isn't to inform. It is to inflame. I have a hard time responding seriously to that."

                                I think it is straightforward material. Or is the intent to report and fully document what's happening, you really don't know the "intent" nhwr, you are guessing. It is good photo journalism, like war photographers -- the shooting styles are similar if not exact: No weird mood lighting, no weird camera lense or angles. Straight forward, like a photojournalist.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by nhwr
                                  It much longer than a human's making changes in bend less significant.
                                  Bah. Length has nothing to do with the significance of kinking a pipe. It still grossly narrows the functional diameter and increases turbulence.

                                  Originally posted by nhwr
                                  Additionally with this technique, the points of the most dramatic flexion are at the poll and jaw which wouldn't impact breathing efficiency at all.
                                  You need to sit down with a good anatomy text.
                                  Better yet, talk to Dr. Cook
                                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    P.R.E., I thought so too: " Who can publish a picture can publish a video. Who rides in a public competition can't demand their video not to be shared by the media."

                                    Until I read that Sjef has copyrighted Anky's face and he can sue anyone that publishes her face without his permission (still or moving images). In that way he protects her from appearing in RK photos. I'll have to see where I read that, it was just yesterday. I wonder if any other competing athlete representing their country has that stipulation, in any sport. Not really a question for this BB.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      excuse my spelling, I, generally, murder the english language. Have you ever seen a horse sleeping sternum, their nose reaching back toward their hing legs? They stay like that for a good while sometimes. There is as much/more angle bend in their throat latch here, than with RK.
                                      www.stfrancispetmedals.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        You know, I always stay out of the rollkur debates. But if I see the argument one more time that these photos are just, "a moment in time." I am going to kick someone. I have watched the warm-up rings in Holland and THIS IS WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE.

                                        I am so sad to see my beautiful buddy Montecristo (the gorgeous bay stallion with the thin blaze) not only ridden like this, but so obviously defeated by it. Maybe he would get above a 65% in the Grand Prix if they tried riding him like a horse and not like a machine... Just because it works for some horses doesn't mean it works for all of them. He can come live with me any day. Same with Gribaldi.

                                        Poor boys. :-(
                                        www.lizaustindressage.com
                                        http://www.imajica.net/stallion/olivier/profile/ Dutch Warmblood stallion, Olivier.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Stardoozer wrote:

                                          if I see the argument one more time that these photos are just, "a moment in time." I am going to kick someone.
                                          I don’t think you’ll have to. I think it’s safe to say that the ‘just a moment in time’ excuse has now been officially invalidated.

                                          Comment

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