• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

The Tongue

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Tongue

    I'm beside myself.

    My talented 5 yr mare started poking her tongue out of her mouth last week. There were some things that happened that I'm going to detail below. Please bear with me, this will be long.

    1) She's been under saddle almost a year. She's been doing great, other than a few months of arguing over my leg, she's progressed very nicely and is now a solid training/first level horse. She still has some green moments. I've taken it very slow with her despite her talent because she's sensitive and emotional.

    2) She's been ridden by a pro once a week--he's been great and loves her. He helps me develop a plan for working her, what she should be practicing, and helps me teach new things. We just introduced a little shoulder fore.

    3) I also work with a trainer from Germany who comes for two month stretches. During those periods, I ride in lessons once or twice a week in addition to her sessions with Sean.

    4) I've also introduced her to jumping, using a H/J trainer who is good with young horses (over fences--see below for more detail).

    Here's what's happened: A couple of weeks ago, this trainer was riding her. She got excited by a nearby horse calling to her. The trainer got off and started to longe her (no side reins, line attached only to inside bit ring) in a crazy galloping circle around and around. Then she put up a jump and longed her over that. She spent a LOT of time working on the left and my mare was stubborn about picking up the left lead. (Don't ask me why I didn't intervene. I'm kicking myself repeatedly already).

    She got back on, and worked her over a few small jumps. She was more attentive, but not her usual self. And this trainer was trying really hard to get her to canter to jumps (especially on the left).

    The next serious ride (I did ground work and trail rode her for a couple of days after that) was with Sean, her regular trainer. I was watching and I noticed a little sliver of pink on the left side. The next ride was the same--only more tongue. Gradually for the past week it's gotten worse. It's only when I take contact with the left rein. If I leave it slack, she keeps her tongue in. If I add a lot of left leg when her tongue is out, she will suck it back in.

    She had her teeth done in April. She goes in a big fat hollow-mouth French link. I looked under her tongue and at her gums there are some very red spots particularly under her tongue and on the sides of her bars--I've never spent a lot of time looking in her mouth (won't make that mistake again), so I have nothing to compare it to, except my other horses, neither of whom have red spots (black, but not red).

    I have an appointment with the vet this week for a mouth check.

    It has been an intense few months for her. I'm considering giving her a month-long (or longer) vacation to see if she forgets about this, or, if she's sore, has time to fully heal.
    Any ideas? Suggestions? Should I continue to work her in a halter or Bitless? Does this sound like a pain reaction or a training issue or both? Give her a big vacation? Change bits? To what?

  • #2
    check her bit isnt hanging to low in her mouth
    2nd any trianer that attaches the lunge to the same side they lunging from isnt worth p in a pot
    it should be attached either over the poll to the other side or under the chin to the other side
    otherwise your going to create more problems for yourself

    look at my helpful links pages they on a sticky above and then go to the bottom
    it has info on how to lunge and long rein

    Comment


    • #3
      Also check for a TMJ problem which could be addressed by a chiro.
      "Reite dein Pferd vorwärts und richte es gerade.” Gustav Steinbrecht

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by goeslikestink View Post
        any trianer that attaches the lunge to the same side they lunging from isnt worth p in a pot
        it should be attached either over the poll to the other side or under the chin to the other side
        otherwise your going to create more problems for yourself
        I learned how to lunge from the person who (literally) wrote the manual on lungeing. The lunge line should be attached to the inside bit ring. Having said that, however, I have had other expert advice to attach over the head. Not to hijack the thread or anything, but if you really think about it, what would cause more pressure/pain in the horse's mouth? As a compromise between the two schools, I use a D-ring when I lunge.

        But getting back to the topic, I've known horses that loll their tongue as a resistance, and some who are probably doing it as a pain response. But what kind of pain, I don't know, because with the one horse, all types of bits were used, a flash, a crank, a drop noseband, you name it. The horse had really bad x-rays but was not lame.

        So based on that, doesn't it make sense that if it's mouth pain related, the lolling would stop with a bitless bridle? But continue even bitless if it's a resistance to pressure?

        I sympathize totally with your plight, eesterson. That would be devastating if it continued.
        2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

        A helmet saved my life.

        Comment


        • #5
          Janek Vluggen, d.o.

          Your horse started out with some problems to the left before things got worse. Sometimes the mouth/tongue issue comes from the other end of the body with pinched spinal nerves, stuck joints, displaced ovaries, adhesions or other issues. I have been going through this with one of my greenies and osteopathic work is what has made a huge difference, plus several different equine dentists until I got a guru. There were a number of issues. Take a look at Janek Vluggen, d.o. equine. www.vluggeninstitute.com/

          He has a US base in Texas that can help you locate a clinic near you. www.thewholehorse.com

          He has been extraordinary at solving inexpensively very difficult cases. He trains vets world wide. He also works with dentists and physical therapists.

          pm me if you want more detail.
          Intermediate Riding Skills

          Comment


          • #6
            Sometimes it may not be pain related at all, could be stress related, or they are just very oral. I have a horse that licks everything, and she can get a little silly with her tongue at times when I ride. It could be something that happened from stress and now has turned into a habit. It like us biting our nails, or sticking our tongue out whenever we are thinking really hard about something.

            Just another thought.

            Letting a horse run very fast on a lunge line is scary to me for the sake of the horses legs not their mouth.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TheHorseProblem View Post
              I learned how to lunge from the person who (literally) wrote the manual on lungeing. The lunge line should be attached to the inside bit ring. Having said that, however, I have had other expert advice to attach over the head. Not to hijack the thread or anything, but if you really think about it, what would cause more pressure/pain in the horse's mouth? As a compromise between the two schools, I use a D-ring when I lunge.

              But getting back to the topic, I've known horses that loll their tongue as a resistance, and some who are probably doing it as a pain response. But what kind of pain, I don't know, because with the one horse, all types of bits were used, a flash, a crank, a drop noseband, you name it. The horse had really bad x-rays but was not lame.

              So based on that, doesn't it make sense that if it's mouth pain related, the lolling would stop with a bitless bridle? But continue even bitless if it's a resistance to pressure?

              I sympathize totally with your plight, eesterson. That would be devastating if it continued.
              if one is to attached the lunge rein from the same side ones lunging then if the horse pulls he/she has the advanatge-- the other aspect of it is that the bit ring and bit is pull through the mouth so not wise to attach the lunge from the same side you lunging at

              also the horse will advade ie tongue out as a measure by him/her to stop the bit from being pulled out of his/her mouth-- then it become a learnt thing of advasion

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheHorseProblem View Post
                I learned how to lunge from the person who (literally) wrote the manual on lungeing. The lunge line should be attached to the inside bit ring. Having said that, however, I have had other expert advice to attach over the head. Not to hijack the thread or anything, but if you really think about it, what would cause more pressure/pain in the horse's mouth? As a compromise between the two schools, I use a D-ring when I lunge.

                But getting back to the topic, I've known horses that loll their tongue as a resistance, and some who are probably doing it as a pain response. But what kind of pain, I don't know, because with the one horse, all types of bits were used, a flash, a crank, a drop noseband, you name it. The horse had really bad x-rays but was not lame.

                So based on that, doesn't it make sense that if it's mouth pain related, the lolling would stop with a bitless bridle? But continue even bitless if it's a resistance to pressure?

                I sympathize totally with your plight, eesterson. That would be devastating if it continued.
                I don't know who you think wrote the manual on longeing, and I know that longeing off the inside bit ring is considered acceptable in the USDF longeing manual, but I do know it was never espoused by Podhjasky, in his book "the Complete Training of Horse and Rider" written ca.1965. I had an original copy til I lent it to who knows and it never returned. I also know I consider it very poor technique, and a very good way to trash a bridle if used on the wrong horse.

                I would rethink your "good with young horses" h/j rider.

                As far as the tongue goes, if no physical causes surface, I would continue to ride her forward, into a very light and well balanced hand. Correct any crookedness from behind. Try to focus on the back end. You already said you observed the problem went away as she went more forward.
                Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Recently, I had a few mouth problems with my mare as well...and then suddenly tiny canine teeth popped out on her lower jaw. Very unusual in mares, but there they were.

                  After they settled down, her mouth got much quieter. Having a vet take a good look in her mouth would also be my first step.

                  Good luck!

                  NJR
                  Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by merrygoround View Post
                    I don't know who you think wrote the manual on longeing, and I know that longeing off the inside bit ring is considered acceptable in the USDF longeing manual, but I do know it was never espoused by Podhjasky, in his book "the Complete Training of Horse and Rider" written ca.1965. I had an original copy til I lent it to who knows and it never returned.
                    Gerhard Politz wrote it.

                    I just checked my copy of Complete Training--it's a first edition! And I borrowed it from a friend ten years ago. Oops! But we're still friends. Maybe she doesn't want it back???

                    All time best horse book is My Horses, My Teachers. I've read it many, many times.
                    2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

                    A helmet saved my life.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "Who wrote the book on Longeing"

                      Lots of people have written lots of books on longeing. It's good to get riding lessons from someone who wrote a book on longeing.

                      People usually get mad if someone says they have a riding problem because they need to change how they ride.

                      It sounds like your horse started putting its tongue out after the longeing session which sounded pretty rough.

                      Horse never put its tongue out before? Ever? Usually it is part of a pattern. If horse hasn't done this before, the mouth might be sore from that longeing session.

                      It could also be just that the horse is the kind that likes to play with its tongue alot and does that when it gets fresh or excited.

                      What seems to fix tongue problems regardless of how they arise is plain old...well...riding better. The better ride might keep the horse looser, more forward, more through the neck which tends to put the tongue back in the mouth. The old timers used to say 'you ride the horse's tongue into his mouth'.

                      People do get mad if someone says, 'ride better', but working with a trainer and finding out different and better ways of doing things isn't always such a wrong idea.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheHorseProblem View Post
                        Gerhard Politz wrote it.

                        I just checked my copy of Complete Training--it's a first edition! And I borrowed it from a friend ten years ago. Oops! But we're still friends. Maybe she doesn't want it back???
                        Ah, he, apparently, is not worth p in a pot then That's good to know!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by merrygoround View Post
                          I don't know who you think wrote the manual on longeing, and I know that longeing off the inside bit ring is considered acceptable in the USDF longeing manual,
                          USDF Lungeing Manual (Edited by Gerhard Politz)

                          Practical Directives for lungeing the horse;
                          How to attach:
                          1. It's strongly recommended that a lungeing cavesson is used. This is the least severe method. The line should be attached to the center ring or inside ring of the lungeing cavesson.
                          2. There are times when lungeing without a cavesson is warranted; when it doesn't fit, or when the horse runs through it. You may also attach to the bit rather than the cavesson when long-reining and doing work in hand.
                          3. If a lungeing cavesson is not used, the following are acceptable:
                          a. Attach a leather thong to the end of the lunge line that will go through the inside bit ring and nose band together.
                          b. Send line through inside bit ring, wrapping around the ring once, then under the chin to the bit ring on the far side.
                          c. Send line through inside bit ring, over the poll, down to the outside bit ring. This attachment acts like a gag. It is severe and should only be used for special circumstances.
                          ... _. ._ .._. .._

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just reread it again. Inside bit ring when long reining. In that case hopefully there is a line attached to the outside bit ring too.

                            I had a discussion with a USDF certified trainer over this, and she stated that the inside bit ring was acceptable according to the manual, I took a quick glance, saw the Figure3, pp7, didn't read the accompanying text. Bad! Bad!

                            Still didn't change my mind as to considering it a bad idea. My apologies to GP, he never said it was so!
                            Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                            Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Oh, good, so GP IS worth p in a pot. I'm sure he'll be quite relieved to hear that!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Next time I see him, I'll tell him he was right. As if I need to.
                                2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

                                A helmet saved my life.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Oh, that's right, you are at his barn aren't you? I was there on Sunday, gorgeous place! I'm quite envious!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Intensive training lately followed by
                                    left lead issues
                                    followed by toungue issues

                                    Sounds like it could be that her topline has changed - so saddle may be pinching, hence left lead became sticky... so when jumper trainer worked her heavy on left lead she becme more sore and perhaps started leaning on left rein...(ask jumper trainer)

                                    That may havwe lead to too much rein from jumper trainer resulting in mouth sores resulting in toungue going out to compensate for mouth being sore.

                                    So start by looking at saddle, fix that, then chiro - looking at poll and jaw but also entire body, then restart the training. By that time any sore in her mouth may be healing or healed enough so toungue problem doesn't re-appear.

                                    Good for you for noticing the problem immediately. Hopefully you'll be able to get it fixed immediately.
                                    Now in Kentucky

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      thanks

                                      Great input...

                                      I am having the vet/chiro out tomorrow. She does not stick her tongue out at all when not in the bridle--even when she's excited. I rode her in a bitless I borrowed from a friend (just a hack) and took her down the rode and she got plenty excited along the way, and no tongue was evident, so it's only when she has a bit in her mouth except...

                                      she does "play with it" when she's being playful with me when she's being groomed (sticks it out, puts it back in, mostly when she's bored) --also, she was a bottle baby and is very oral--always eating the lead rope, nibbling on this and that, and, get this, at five, she still "suckles" as she's eating--she'll take a few bits, then suckle-suckle-suckle, then another bite. Takes her FOREVER to finish her grain.

                                      BTW, I never meant to start an argument on longeing. In my view, I was appalled and should have stepped in. Correct or not, it was not the right thing for my horse at the time.

                                      I have no idea whether the longeing caused it--it was just one of many circumstances, and the timing was interesting--the first serious ride after that incident. To me, it almost looked like her tongue was swollen and it couldn't fit in her mouth anymore.

                                      Left-everything has always been a problem for us.. left bend, left lead. Even pre-riding. Bu thtis is the first tongue I've seen.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Ambrey View Post
                                        Oh, good, so GP IS worth p in a pot. I'm sure he'll be quite relieved to hear that!
                                        I never said he wasn't I just disagreed with the poster who considered it a good idea, citing a "book " he had written.
                                        Last edited by merrygoround; Nov. 12, 2010, 03:43 PM. Reason: Corrected ;) symbol ;)
                                        Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                        Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X