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Why is this so hard? How long did it take you to find THE HORSE?

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  • #61
    Originally Posted by ToN Farm
    Because there usual is. It may not be a soundness or behavior issue, but it could be a performance issue. The exception to this would be young horses. In that case, if they are cheap, it is because the breeder/owner does not think that are worth more, for whatever reason, but probably talent related. These days, most owners and breeders know a nice horse when they see one. Gone are the days of seeing a 'Snowman' in the backyard field.

    Or it could be that the breeder has expenses to pay



    Totally. I have a filly for sale right now that won her inspection, is a 1st premie , well bred ect ect for half the price of other foals of her quality, there is nothing wrong with her and I still cannot sell her. I can't figure it out, even in this market. Sometimes we really do just have to pay the bills, and in a tough market if you want to sell, you need to price accordingly.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

    Comment


    • #62
      "What's wrong with him" is that kind of universal statement that can mean so many different things....

      trying to act casual, like one buys a lot of horses

      registering surprise at the price and combination of age, training, etc.

      Comment


      • #63
        I also wanted to comment on what I am starting to figure out as I shop for my next "big" horse. I just started looking about a month ago for a pretty competative top young horse (at least 5 yrs old). My only requirements are that is has started to school changes or preferably has them.

        1. Most horses that appear suitable do not have a video. The owner wants close to 100k or more for horse, but cannot be bothered to put a video on the net.
        2. If there is a video, the horse is often not shown being worked at the level they claim the horse is at....it is some video when the horse was just broke as a three year old. Great, very helpful.
        3. Training is often horrid to the point where I am embarrassed for the seller that the horse is advertised for such a price. Ie five year old horse whos trot has gone totally passagey and the rider seems to be oblivious and in fact seems to be showing it off.
        4. People who claim their horses have x amount of training with the scores to boot only to not be able to provide you with any form of evidence for this.

        Just a few days ago I came across a fantastic mare (and I would really prefer a mare), has won DAD many times in the material, in hand classes. Gorgeous mare, really. She is 6 yrs old and owner claims horse has scores in mid seventies for training through 2nd level and she is now schooling third and is being aimed at pan am games. Ok. So then she tells me horse has had a year off because she wanted to collect embryos (totally doesn't make sense)..... so then that would make her four when she was last shown??.

        So can someone tell me how a four year old has shown 2nd level? I asked for some evidence of this and get a video of her at DAD winning a suitability class and I get a recent video of someone who can barely ride putting her through w, t, canter and some bizarre attempt at the leg yeild while the horse is kicking out at the rider. And the woman wants close to 100 k for this mare and did seem to be offended that I wont just take her word on how well this horse is schooled, her scores ect .

        I dunno. I can see why people go to Europe, I really, really can.
        www.svhanoverians.com

        "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

        Comment


        • #64
          It is why I went to Europe.
          Perhaps it would have been wiser to maintain your silence than to make an effort obviously borne from some sense of obligation - Cindi

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Donella View Post

            Just a few days ago I came across a fantastic mare (and I would really prefer a mare), has won DAD many times in the material, in hand classes. Gorgeous mare, really. She is 6 yrs old and owner claims horse has scores in mid seventies for training through 2nd level and she is now schooling third and is being aimed at pan am games. Ok. So then she tells me horse has had a year off because she wanted to collect embryos (totally doesn't make sense)..... so then that would make her four when she was last shown??.

            So can someone tell me how a four year old has shown 2nd level? I asked for some evidence of this and get a video of her at DAD winning a suitability class and I get a recent video of someone who can barely ride putting her through w, t, canter and some bizarre attempt at the leg yeild while the horse is kicking out at the rider. And the woman wants close to 100 k for this mare and did seem to be offended that I wont just take her word on how well this horse is schooled, her scores ect .
            Don’t mean to make light of these experiences, but some are really funny. I think the frustration that buyers have with some sellers is that the sellers truly do not have a clue what they are selling. It is not so much a question of being unethical liars as it is a matter of naïveté and ignorance. Ever notice that everyone in horses is an expert, and every horse for sale has three perfect “gates” and FEI potential.
            Logres Farm on Facebook
            http://logresfarmpintowarmbloods.com/
            http://logresdobermans.com/

            Comment


            • #66
              Cartier, yes, that is true. I mean it IS funny, in a sort of unbelievable baffling way. LOL . Jeez!
              www.svhanoverians.com

              "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

              Comment


              • #67
                Ever notice that everyone in horses is an expert, and every horse for sale has three perfect “gates” and FEI potential.
                And perfect 'confirmation' too.

                Comment


                • #68
                  From a seller's point of view, I have almost given up on presenting any of my horses to strange buyers. Most of my sales are to clients who already purchased one of my horses and knows their value.
                  Digital x-rays are now a night mare as the Vet has to cover his butt by pointing out anything and everything they see and even though he knows it will probably NOT be a future probem, it still must be written on the report. Does the buyer really understand what is fact and could be a future problem or are they waiting for a comment about,
                  "clean x-rays", which are non-existent in today's world!
                  Even though I have sold several horses and know the family lines and what their aptitudes and attitudes are, buyers have been so jaded with bad temperaments, horses that won't tie, clip or else need to be lunged to death before the rider mounts--they won't believe
                  you when you present a horse with exceptional manners, fabulous kind, brain that "sees"
                  you as a person, a horse that lives to please you and be a lifetime companion, they
                  still won't believe it. There must be something wrong!
                  I have a very nice five year old mare right now, 16.2, nice conformation, gentle, kind and has won blues in dressage, hunter class and eventing. She should be an eventer, but has the apltitude for lower level dressage, been in training for more then a year and
                  no one seems to be interested, and if they might be, they want to ask, what is wrong with her or maybe I can low ball the price. I will just wait for the right person to come along, as they always do and it is someone who finally appreciates them for
                  the quality that they exhibit.
                  None of the many horses I have sold have ever been re-sold except once when a teenager, discovered boys were more interesting. The others are lifetime horses for their owners!
                  But do the buyers believe me, no, not really1 MOST OF THEM DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THE BREEDING, THE BLOODLINES AND family lines. I am beginning to believe a majority of them are just enjoying "kicking tires"! They really are not that serious about actually purchasing a horse, just like the experience of "looking"!
                  www.shagyasport.com

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I agree that obsession with a PERFECT vet check prevents a lot of people from buying a nice horse.

                    I looked for over a year for a horse with confirmed changes. Gave up when one I REALLY wanted was sold out from under me. Then 4 or 5 months later, I got an e-mail out of the blue about a price reduction on a horse I had previously inquired about. I called that day, made a plane reservation the next day and bought her on my visit. I didn't even do x-rays because she was a 14-yr-old horse that flexed great. There probably would have been something on the x-rays but I am riding the horse, not the x-rays. I went with my gut that a 14-yr-old horse that had a show record through 4th 1 and flexed great was probably sound, regardless of what was on the x-rays.

                    I think you have to be realistic. If temperament is the #1, non-negotiable trait that you MUST have in a horse, then you better be willing to consider an average or slightly above average mover and not think you are going to get a horse with international quality gaits who is also bombproof. If that horse even exists (probably not) it will cost a whole heck of a lot more than $15K, especially if you want 100% sound in addition.

                    I also agree that not everyone who is selling is desparate because the economy sucks. I'd rather hold on to my 4-yr-old (who has the BEST temperament and is one of the slightly above average movers) than sell her for peanuts. I will just have a great time riding her until someone comes along who is willing to pay a fair price for her. And most likely I will have so much fun with her that I will decide to keep her - LOL!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I am beginning to believe a majority of them are just enjoying "kicking tires"! They really are not that serious about actually purchasing a horse, just like the experience of "looking"!

                      AMEN! As a breeder, I know exactly what you mean. It's very bizarre.
                      www.svhanoverians.com

                      "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by inca View Post

                        I also agree that not everyone who is selling is desparate because the economy sucks. I'd rather hold on to my 4-yr-old (who has the BEST temperament and is one of the slightly above average movers) than sell her for peanuts. I will just have a great time riding her until someone comes along who is willing to pay a fair price for her. And most likely I will have so much fun with her that I will decide to keep her - LOL!
                        Well... as both a buyer and seller I have to say I really dread hearing this from people. I call it the "I would like to have X dollars in my pocket"
                        view. It is different from the "I want to sell this horse" view. I don't think of the former horses as being "for sale." The owners are willing to take $ in exchange for the horse, but that is somewhat different from owners who want "to sell."

                        Same goes for buyers, by the way. If the ideal horse at a dream price happens to somehow drift beneath the panels of their saddle, they might consider a $ exchange to make it theirs. But, they are not "buying" they are "shopping."

                        For both buyers and sellers I think their own personal learning processes impact the sales process heavily. Buyers don't know what they 'really' want, or are 'really' willing to spend, live with, travel for, overlook, etc, etc. And sellers don't know how long they are really willing to wait, what their horses are like with different riders, how much they are willing to take when it turns out the horse as this or that issue, etc.

                        In general, people do not know what they do know until they run head first into it. And this applies to professionals as much as to Amateurs. I have ridden horses that make me wonder "are they kidding, they think this is a Lady's horse. Maybe for Venus or Serena Williams..."

                        No one's fault, really. But with the passions involved the unknown can be morphed into The Great Horrible Undisclosed Secret Agenda/Issue. More likely, people just "don't know." The 6' German Trainer doesn't know what at 62 year old very Amateur American Lady Rider can and cannot most likely do, the AA does not know how her horse will react to a different rider, the breeder does not know what will or will not become of the young prospect, though maybe they can give a good guess.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I was exaggerating the situation to make the point that just because the economy sucks does NOT mean I am going to practically give away my VERY amateur friendly horse who will be awesome hunter or 3rd/4th level dressage horse. Don't expect every seller to sell their horse for $5,000 just because YOU think they should because of the down market. Some of us would rather keep them and get a fair price later than practically give them away. This filly is advertised for what is still a very fair price and if someone comes looks at her, is a good match for her and is willing to pay that price, then they will absolutely be her new owner. But, if that person offers me 50% of her already extremely fair price, than no, I will not sell her to them. Why should I?????

                          Now, I DO have another horse that I have a ridiculously low price tag on because she is 13 and I don't feel I will get a better price later. The economy IS playing a part in her price. I don't have time to ride her enough and she NEEDS a new home. But, sellers that don't HAVE to sell are not going to be swayed by the bad market to give their horses away at bargain basement prices.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Buyers need to be realistic with their goals and not expect an FEI prospect to just fall out of the trees, when what they need is a nicely trained young prospect, who they can ride in clinics, do well with weekly lessons, and once in awhile go for a trail ride. A horse that is pretty to look at, easy to live with, has a wonderful temperament and is able to give a credible score when they do finally enter a show.

                            This horse may not rise above second or third level, but to be honest they would NOT have the time or discipline to train to this level anyway. How many of these marginal horses are standing in stalls, not allowed to be a horse, because their owners BELIEVE they have
                            a Grand Prix prospect. Just relax and enjoy your horse, go out on a trail ride once in awhile, purchase a horse that is able to do other disciplines--have fun with your horse!

                            I once had a buyer who paid to have a four year old horse transported to a vet clilnic for a detailed vet exam. The price asked was a modest 18k. When the vet asked the buyer what she intended to do with this horse, she stated, "oh, I want her to be trained to GRAND PRIX"!

                            I could not believe what I heard, as this potential buyer had not even taken riding lessons! The vet found one small irregularity in one hock, but since she was not "perfect", the horse went unsold and the potential buyer was out about $1500. This was the only horse I've ever had that didn't have what are called "clean x-rays". But even
                            if this buyer had purchased her, where would she be today, standing in a stall waiting for her owner to magically turn into a "Grand Prix" rider!
                            www.shagyasport.com

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by LCR View Post
                              ... I am beginning to believe a majority of them are just enjoying "kicking tires"! They really are not that serious about actually purchasing a horse, just like the experience of "looking"!
                              Maybe the local crowd. Personally, I'm not too keen on taking off work, buying a plane ticket, paying for a hotel and rental car (typically in places that aren't exactly vacation meccas) to look at horses that are misrepresented by unethical sellers.

                              The right horse is out there somewhere, and I'll find it eventually.

                              There's "funny haha" and then there's "funny boohoo"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                It took me 6 months of hard core searching to find my next horse. I also felt pressure about making the "right" choice this time. Because of the place I am in my life this might be my last chance. I have 3 daughters who need college tuition and weddings paid for!!!

                                I stuck to my list of "must haves" and for quite some time I was thinking that my list was unrealistic. But I did find "the horse" and the only compromise I made was on price.....I ended up paying way above my starting budget. But I got exactly what I wanted and more. He was the 50th horse I called about.

                                I learned many things in the process.
                                1. People with high dollar horses for sale don't seem to understand the important of preventative maintenance. Very few horses were on Adequan (or the generic). Most sellers felt this was a testament to the soundness of their sale prospect. I equated this to a human not taking their high BP medicine until they were symptomatic.
                                2. You must ask very specific questions and verify as much as you can. Halfway through my search I took on the strategy of "don't believe what you have been told until you verify". I always asked if the vet records would be opened. Another good question is....Is the horse insured? If yes are there any exclusions? Another one is has the horse ever spent a night at a vet hospital? I was amazed at history the sellers left out that the referring vet would tell me about. Ranging from colic surgery, treatment for EPM etc.
                                3. Use the USDF score check to verify scores. Breaks in performance history should be questioned.

                                Thanks. Good Luck in your search.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  [QUOTE=slc2;4148654]I think it's not just first time buyers. I was really squeamy about xrays when looking for a new horse after mine was retired by an OCD some time after the horse was bought. It's hard to buy a horse infrequently and behave like an experienced, skilled pro, and evaluate all the information perfectly. People learn over many years and many purchases how to select a pre purchase vet, how to evaluate the information provided by the vet, etc.

                                  arh slc2 was the sqeamy feeling for the new wb horse you told me you brought
                                  or is it the new little driving pony you have
                                  ooh and how you getting on with her trianing these days done any shows with her yet

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by KatherineC View Post
                                    1. People with high dollar horses for sale don't seem to understand the important of preventative maintenance. Very few horses were on Adequan (or the generic). Most sellers felt this was a testament to the soundness of their sale prospect. I equated this to a human not taking their high BP medicine until they were symptomatic.
                                    This doesn't make sense to me. To use your analogy, I am a person with very low blood pressure (no matter how much stress I am under.) Why would I even THINK of taking high blood pressure medicine when I am perfectly fine without it!

                                    The mare I bought was 14, now 15, and is 100% sound on absolutely no supplements and she has never had a joint injected. I consider that a GOOD thing and Adequan is darn expensive to use on a SOUND horse. Yes, I have a horse on Adequan now (trying to resolve a lameness) and had another horse that Adequan was the only thing that kept her sound when in work. It is great stuff but not every horse needs Adequan.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      1. People with high dollar horses for sale don't seem to understand the important of preventative maintenance. Very few horses were on Adequan (or the generic). Most sellers felt this was a testament to the soundness of their sale prospect. I equated this to a human not taking their high BP medicine until they were symptomatic.

                                      I agree with this 100 percent. If you are looking at an FEI horse, you are insane to think that this kind of work is not hard on a horse and that they shouldn't get all the help they can in preventing premature breakdown. I don't mean they should be getting joint injections as prevention, but some Adequan, yes. We start our WEANLINGS on Glucosamine and MSM. Why not?? It certainly isn't going to hurt.

                                      The high performance horses that I know of all receive maintenance shots (IM) from about 6 yrs once a month as prevention as well as oral supplements.

                                      I would still buy a horse that wasn't on these but I , as a breeder and rider definately believe in the power of prevention. If you are doing dressage fairly competatively past second, you are putting those joints under significant stress. No two ways about it.
                                      www.svhanoverians.com

                                      "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Maybe I mistated my analogy. High blood pressure is a disease with silent symptoms so it would be easy to ignore and not take medication because in many cases there is nothing obvious occuring. While in actuality there are all kinds of internal processes occuring that have negative outcomes (e.g. decreased renal function, increased risk of stroke).

                                        Adequan (or the generic which is much more affordable) is a preventative therapy and it is clinically proven to supplement the wear and repair cycle in the joints. It aids in the production of new cartilage, increases synovial hyaluronic acid ect. These are all very good things for a horse in full work, regardless of whether it is dressage, eventing etc. Damage to joints occurs at a microscopic level and the lameness shows up after the disease has started. This damage can be prevented by using acetylglucosame.

                                        Oral joint supplement are large molecules and are not well absorbed by equines. They come out in the poop. The IM route is the only route that will benefit the health of the joint.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by KatherineC View Post
                                          Oral joint supplement are large molecules and are not well absorbed by equines. They come out in the poop. The IM route is the only route that will benefit the health of the joint.
                                          It's like vitamins: some absorb better when combined with others. I don't think you'll find vets who agree with your comment, "The IM route is the only route that will benefit the health of the joint." Of course products like cosequin and msm help.

                                          Comment

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