Rules?? Lame Horse Pinning 1st at Show????

[Sandy M]

FWIW - and agreeing with slc on this point: My young horse is a big mover. He is barefoot. He can get VERY tense at shows (he's only been to three in his life at this point). He is not and does not look "lame" when he gets tense. He just becomes disinclined to work through his back, but not uneven or head-bobbing or anything like what the OP described.

[Sabine]

If you are new to the GMO it doesn't sound like you are making friends. I am sure you will find that you now have a reputation the next time you go to a show.

You don't kick someone in the shin- if they acknowledge their mistake in the way they went about a situation..bad taste in my mind.
I agree with slick (jeez that's becoming a habit!???) and would still insist- that the 'lameness issue' needs to be clarified for judges and TDs so that there are NO incidents like the one described....and yes there is always someone saying they are lame and someone saying the horse was not lame...but in a nutshell- we do see lame horses at shows...and that HAS TO BE A NO-NO!!!

[WhatzUp]

...

While none of us were there and saw the situation first hand...as a judge, I'd like to put a spin on this topic and give a variety of reasons as to why a lame horse was allowed to compete and win.

Janet is correct, it is the judge, and only the judge that makes a decision about lameness. A veterinarian can be brought in for an assessment. But once the judge has made a decision, it is final.

1. Just because someone is a judge, even an R judge, does not make them an expert horseman, nor does it make them an expert at determining lameness, not unless they are a veterinarian...and we all know when that's been misdiagnosed too! As much as we dearly hope our R judges are the cream of the crop, a few do slip through the cracks!! If a judge happens to be a trainer, stable owner, etc. who has had a world of experience in dealing with horses, client horses, veterinarians and lameness problems, I would expect them to have a better idea of when a horse is "off". But...judges are human just like everybody else. Crumb, maybe she forgot her glasses at home!
2. Unless you were sitting right at C, where that judge sat, you do not know what they saw from their angle.
3. Civil suits have been filed and WON by competitors who were told by a judge that their horse was "lame". I have always been taught NEVER to accuse a competitors horse of being lame....I just don't use them on my card. If I have to use them on my card, I place them as low as possible. If someone ended up grilling it out of me as to why I did not use their horse, I would simply just say "I couldn't use your horse the way it was going today". Thankfully, I have never had to do that. In dressage, I'm sure writing "unbalanced" enough times would do the trick. Competitors rarely realize the pressure a judge has, especially with lawsuits and accusing a horse of being lame. Now, if a horse was dead lame and the horse was in distress, I would have to excuse the horse. Again, thankfully it has never happened. The stress of having to do that would be astronomical...especially if the competitor disagreed and got defensive. We just don't get paid enough to have to defend ourselves in a lawsuit as a result!
4. There is a BIG difference between a lame horse, a horse who is rein or arena lame, and horse who is just plain stiff. Maybe to you, and from your angle, the horse looked lame. Maybe in the judges opinion, it just looked unbalanced and rein lame or just stiff. But...then why place it first...we don't know how the rest of the class did though. Maybe it was just the best of the worst in that class!

I could keep going on forever as to why that judge used the horse in their class. Bottom line, it comes down to the judges decision, the expertise and knowledge of the judge and what they saw. As long as that horse was not suffering or in immediate distress, there is nothing a person can do unless a judge makes a decision, so don't put the blame on the show committee, the TD or the local dressage chapter. Don't let your local dressage chapter suffer (because you stop volunteering) because of one potentially poor judge.

Hi,

What judging designation do you hold ?

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[slc2]

It's been a good discussion.

I think one of the biggest problems we have is that we don't get a consistent reaction when two people look at the same video or picture, one person thinks it stinks, the next person thinks it's great and LEAVE BRITTNEY ALONE! LOL.

People are isolated and they don't get a lot of input from instructors and they don't get exposed to alot of information. It becomes very difficult for people to develop their eye under those circumstances.

[Donella]

The OP didn't bring this up to try and bring down the person involved. Most of us have NO idea who she is refering to, nor does she name names. She states that she and a number of other people though that the horse was lame and that the judge didn't call it. Her beef is with the judge. I have seen this happen, and I can understand her concern. It really seems like alot of people have no idea when their horse is off....ALOT of people.

There is a guy that rides in our area on a perpetually lame horse, shows WAY above his level of riding and his horses level of training. I know that he has been told by people around his stable that his horse is lame/off. He ignores them. He was showing in a national show this summer, where there were three O judges. I have no idea if the judges said anything to him on his test but he did enter the clinic that followed the show with Axel Steiner (who was judging the show). Axel told him flat out and point blank that his horse is absolutely lame and that he has no buisness riding at the level he claims to ride at. He was polite about it and offered help with rider position, but he didn't dick around. At the end of the day, it is about the horse. I wish more people would speak up about lame horses and stop worrying about offending someone. If your horse is lame at a show or clinic A you either dont know and hence need to be told or B you dont care, in which case I could care less if you are offended.

In my opinion, there are alot of horsepeople who cannot tell when a horse is "off", people who SHOULD be able to tell. If the movement is questionable, there is likely an issue.... ie it is alot more likely that the horse is off and yet alot of people cannot see it than it is that the horse is 100 percent sound and yet a #of people think it is lame. Know what I mean?>

[slc2]

There are a lot of horses that alter their gait so that they aren't in pain. As long as they are allowed to compensate for their issue (tendon, arthritis, any number of things can do this) and aren't worked hard, they are pain free and while I'm not in favor of them being worked hard, I do feel that as long as they aren't in pain, it isn't wrong to ride and learn from them But they have to be in a strict 'program' and everyone has to be on board. No big long clinics, no shows, and a very ethics oriented oversight from someone who keeps in mind the horse's welfare is primary.

Compensation may be shortening the stride of one hind leg, being crooked (relative to the extreme straightness needed at the higher level work), not bending the hocks and carrying quite so much, and not pushing hard in extentions and lengthenings. What each one of these horses can do will vary - but typically, no pirouettes, no full power lengthenings, and for each condition, different things might be off limits. A rider can get the feel of what 'on the bit' is and how to bend and do basic (large) figures, but not of everything.

I don't believe those horses should be shown or worked hard, but as long as they are in a program and worked appropriately I don't think the horses are in pain. I also don't think the situation will be ethical forever, eventually even these horses have a point they get to where ethics says, enough. We always need to think first if the program really is keeping the horse comfortable or just lining someone's wallet.

[mtngirl]

So what about being rung out for the horse being lame...and NO ONE but the judge could see it? Including a vet? (And an experienced trainer standing behind C watching the ride). Saw that happen this weekend at a show...granted the woman wasn't having the best ride...but there was nothing horrible about it either. It was...steady, if uninspiring. The horse took a couple of uneven steps when it crossed the diagonal in a medium trot (numerous horses did in the same spot...I think there was a little uneveness there in the footing). But after the fifth or six movement, the judge rang the horse out, saying it was lame. Oh...and the judge is not a vet.

I mean...the judge's word is final isn't it? Would the rider have any recourse?

[yaya]

I mean...the judge's word is final isn't it? Would the rider have any recourse?

The judge's word is final. No recourse.

[Trevelyan96]

The judge's word is final. No recourse.

Maybe its this 'finality' that makes a lot of judges unwilling to make the call. I guess there will always be controversy and, as pointed out, many people really aren't taught how to spot lameness, and most, even if they can see it, can't identify which leg or specific area IS lame, so the burden of proof falls on the person calling the lameness.

At any rate, it sure would be nice if these issues had a better way of being resolved at shows for all involved so the reputations of judges, trainers, and riders would not be ruined by rumors, while still advocating the best treatment of the hroses. I realize that it would be riduculous to have a vet present at every show, but I think any time there is a question, raised by ANYONE at the show, the horse should be jogged or ridden for a 2nd look and soundness check before show results are finalized. It would save face for everyone involved in a less subjective way.

[Equibrit]

......but I think any time there is a question, raised by ANYONE at the show, the horse should be jogged or ridden for a 2nd look and soundness check before show results are finalized. It would save face for everyone involved in a less subjective way.

I think you'd have to do WAY better than that !

[Janet]

Maybe its this 'finality' that makes a lot of judges unwilling to make the call. I guess there will always be controversy and, as pointed out, many people really aren't taught how to spot lameness, and most, even if they can see it, can't identify which leg or specific area IS lame, so the burden of proof falls on the person calling the lameness.

At any rate, it sure would be nice if these issues had a better way of being resolved at shows for all involved so the reputations of judges, trainers, and riders would not be ruined by rumors, while still advocating the best treatment of the hroses. I realize that it would be riduculous to have a vet present at every show, but I think any time there is a question, raised by ANYONE at the show, the horse should be jogged or ridden for a 2nd look and soundness check before show results are finalized. It would save face for everyone involved in a less subjective way.

Who chooses the vet? What relationship does the vet have with the various parties?

Just as subjective.

[Trevelyan96]

I just wish that there were a mechanism at the show for the horse to have some type of soundness check if there is a question about it. At that point the show management and judge can ask to have the horse jogged or ridden for a 2nd look. At best, it gives everyone a chance to see that the issue is being dealt with openly and also gives the pair the benefit of the doubt that maybe the horse took a while to work out of stiffnes, or rider was unaware of the lameness, or its something that cropped up during the test. At worst, someone might be a little miffed at the final decision, whether pro or con, but at least the process would be transparent.

Judging IS subjective, that's a fact that we have to live with in this sport, but soundness is something that should always bear slightly closer scrutiny if there is a question. Even if for no other reason than that we have a responsibility to be advocates for the horse.

At a schooling show, it can be an informal decision of the judge, TD, and show manager, with both sides presenting their observations, explanations, whatever. At recognized shows, where the stakes are higher, I think a vet should be involved.

But the current system, where the decision is left soley on the shoulders of the judge, and/or the TD is putting altogether too much responsibility on their shoulders as well as leaving many people feeling powerless and disillusioned when things aren't addressed at all. I would much rather be told "we looked at him again and we disagree" than "judge/td didn't see it so it didn't happen."

[mbm]

Who chooses the vet? What relationship does the vet have with the various parties?

Just as subjective.

what about the vets used for the jog at CDIs? "they" Seem to be able to make it work there?

[Janet]

what about the vets used for the jog at CDIs? "they" Seem to be able to make it work there?

I don't know about CDI, but at CCI, it is the GROUND JURY (the judges) that make the decision at the "jog". They can consult with the vets, but the judges make the decision.

[Daventry]

Hi,

What judging designation do you hold ?

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Lynn, my judging credentials are clearly stated on my website at www.daventryfarms.com/judging.html Whether I'm a carded judge or not though, it's easy enough to go through the rule book and learn the rules...and after twenty years in the show ring as both a competitor and trainer, it's much easier to get an appreciation for what a judge's job entails.

[Fharoah]

I have a horse with a gait abnormalty at the walk. If you walk him on flat concrete he seems lame at the walk, if you trot him he is 100% has been confirmed by top notch lameness specialist sergeon. He is not sensitive to any palpation, does not bute out of it, is negative to flexions and sound at trot and canter, does his changes no problem no resistance at all, if I showed you a video you may well think he was lame at the walk it looks off.