Rules?? Lame Horse Pinning 1st at Show????

[eggbutt]

Since it is a schooling show, there are fewer options than at rated show, where any competitor could file a formal complaint. If this is a GMO sanctioned show, there should have been a Technical Delegate on duty. It would be the TD's responsibility rather than the show manager. You report the lameness to the TD who takes the matter before the judge.

TD's are not required at schooling shows.

[Dressage Art]

I sadly think that this is a cultural issue that will resolve itself soon- the tolerance for any kind of public discomfort - pain involved or not- is running very much out- so that the public will speak up and the responsible parties will kick in- in order to save the validity of their event/activity/competition.
It is not acceptable in our times - with our knowledge and education- to watch a horse perform in apparent pain- or dysfunction of one of their limbs- it is against everything we believe in, advertise and support.

I really hope that you are right. I only wish there would be more people who would openly speak against showing lame horses - no matter who is showing those lame horses. I'm sure if Anky showed a lame horse, much more people would jump at her. It's naturally more difficult to speak up against a rider that we admire and love and who is our own as well... but I fear that now we have a "history" of horses that do not belong in the show ring, but are still shown and their discomfort is dismissed.

If that will continue, I’m afraid that I will be against dressage as an Olympic sport, since Olympics should be a display of the best of the best and purest of the pure that should inspire others… not cringe worthy almost-lame-stiff ride with excuses why a horse was not-quite-right…… no that is not a classical ballet dancer / dressage horse that I paid money to see live or on DVD.

[Alpha Mare]

When I was in 4-H there was a situation at a local show that my friend was told by the judge, in the last class of the day, that her horse was lovely but lame. It had showed in several classes previously, and the judge said at this point the horse was lame (english pleasure class). I'll always remember him saying 'I could pin you first except that your horse is off now, so you are last in this class'. He said it kindly, to a teenager, as education but also was firm as to why the placing was where it was.

IMO that is how dressage should be run. And a 'lame' horse, depending on severity, should be getting 0,1 or 2 on gaits, not just a '4' on one movement or gait score. And rider should also be penalized if the rider cannot feel that irregularity.

However, I hear from judges how much pressure is on them to avoid a negative comment. I had one friend lament that she excused a horse for blood on it's muzzle (no other sign of abuse, but that is the rule, any blood and it's done) and felt the show management would hold it against her forever.

We should have a hold an indemnification and hold harmless clause in show entries to deter these lawsuits. It pollutes the sport to have the judge afraid of telling the truth as s/he sees it.

[Trevelyan96]

I may be new to Dressage, but I've been around horses for the last 20 years, and I can positively say that the horse in question was not 'stiff' or 'rein lame' He was noticeably lame at the trot on the RF, with head bob and shortened stride on straight lines, circles, and laterally throughout the test. The test was L1-2. I was not the only person to notice or comment on it.

That said, I really do think it is a shame that an 'R' judge would give such high marks at that level to a horse that was markedly uneven. I think the judge was more focused on the rider's ability, which is unquestionable, than the quality of the test itself.

I do understand that there is a great deal of pressure on judges to encourage and reward good riding, as there is a perception that Dressage in the US is struggling. I also understand that there are many old campaigners out there who can be stiff or slightly arthritic, but are invaluable as teachers and confidence builders for young or inexperienced riders. But their place should be at Intro Level, for the good of the horse.

But as a newbie, I find it sort of disillusioning to see this type of thing, as the very reason I was drawn to Dressage was that I considered it to be the highest standard of good riding, conditioning, and training. I feel that what I witnessed at this show was politics and the gathering of the wagons to protect the inner circle.

[CosMonster]

But as a newbie, I find it sort of disillusioning to see this type of thing, as the very reason I was drawn to Dressage was that I considered it to be the highest standard of good riding, conditioning, and training. I feel that what I witnessed at this show was politics and the gathering of the wagons to protect the inner circle.

Dressage is just like anything else...there is the good and the bad. Having shown in other disciplines I do think there is often more good in dressage than in some others--it's harder to take shortcuts, and it isn't as hard on the horses physically as say jumping. But there are lots of people who just want to make money, or win ribbons, and then there are some that just have way different standards of what is acceptable. Unfortunately you have to weed through them.

I think you should try to get more involved in your GMO if things aren't the way you want them. GMOs frequently have an incredibly difficult time finding people who are interested in taking on responsibility, so they wind up having the same people year in and year out, and it turns into a clique. It may not work but it is worth a try.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, and I hope it doesn't turn you off from dressage. It really is a lovely sport with a lot of great people.

[narcisco]

TD's are not required at schooling shows.

In many regions, GMO sanctioned shows are called schooling shows to differentiate them from USEF shows. They require a TD.

[Janet]

In many regions, GMO sanctioned shows are called schooling shows to differentiate them from USEF shows. They require a TD.

Depends on the GMO.

Our GMO sactioned shows do not require a TD.

[Dressage Art]

Interesting. Our GMO (California Dressage Society http://www.california-dressage.org ) does all of its shows by the USEF Rules. CDS year end championship show is actually more prestigious than USDF championship show, since it's so much harder to qualify for them. Just look at the scores that are needed to qualify for our GMO Year End Championships:

Level Scores / Percent (or better) Number of Different Judges

Training Level* 5 Scores / 66% from four Judges
Training AdultAm* 5 Scores / 64% from four Judges
Level I Pro 5 Scores / 64% from four Judges
Level I AdultAm 5 Scores / 63% from four Judges
Level II Pro 5 Scores / 64% from four Judges
Level II AdultAm 5 Scores / 62% from four Judges
Level III Pro 5 Scores / 62% from four Judges
Level III AdultAm 5 Scores / 60% from four Judges
Level IV Pro 5 Scores / 62% from four Judges
Level IV Pro AdultAm 5 Scores / 60% from four Judges
Prix St. Georges Pro 3 Scores / 62% from two Judges
Prix St. Georges AdultAm 3 Scores / 60% from two Judges
Intermediare I Pro 3 Scores / 62% from two Judges
Intermediare I AdultA 3 Scores / 60% from two Judges
Intermediare II 3 Scores / 60% from two Judges
Grand Prix 3 Scores / 60% from two Judges
Freestyle 3 Scores / 62% from two Judges

CDS is about 5,000.00 members strong and has 37 Chapters, the largest chapter is about 500 and the smallest is about 20 members strong. Some of our chapters are larger than some other states GMOs Larger chapters usually have one schooling show with "L" judging it, then one GMO/CDS show with "R/S" judging it and one USEF/USDF/CDS/GMO show with "S" judging it.

Oh, we also have a star ranking: GMO shows are 1 star shows and USEF/USDF/GMO shows are 3 star shows - but both rated and ran by the USEF Rules with TDs and MITs and so on.

[Boomer]

More often "uneven"

ESPECIALLY "uneven in front" or "uneven behind".

Some of the judges I've scribed for have said "irregular steps" along with "uneven steps".

[Janet]

Our GMO often has R or S judges for our unrecognized shows. But no TD.

[366474]

I was at the event. The horse was not lame. The horse is 4 years old at its 2nd schooling show. He is a big mover. I am sorry you thought he looked lame. There were no comments mentioning any unevenness on the test sheet and nothing was said to the rider. He did have a few steps where he was tense in the tack and wanted to break in the canter. Keep you nasty comments to yourself and if you really have a problem with the soundness of the horse approach the rider. Speaking up on the black boards doesn't do it. I also feel the financial situation of the rider has absolutely nothing to do with this.
I do agree that sometimes horses appear lame that win. This wasn't one of them.

[Trevelyan96]

I was at the event. The horse was not lame. The horse is 4 years old at its 2nd schooling show. He is a big mover. I am sorry you thought he looked lame. There were no comments mentioning any unevenness on the test sheet and nothing was said to the rider. He did have a few steps where he was tense in the tack and wanted to break in the canter. Keep you nasty comments to yourself and if you really have a problem with the soundness of the horse approach the rider. Speaking up on the black boards doesn't do it. I also feel the financial situation of the rider has absolutely nothing to do with this.
I do agree that sometimes horses appear lame that win. This wasn't one of them.

I'm trying my hardest not to be nasty, I originally posted because I saw something that concerned me, and wanted some clarification as to rules and the proper way to address the issue in general, so I will know what to expect if I continue to pursue Dressage and be an active member of my GMO. It was not my intention to bash the rider or take this any further, unless prompted to do so by someone with more experience in the Dressage community! My personal convictions on what I saw are pretty definitite, but frankly, I have neither the desire or motivation to go about causing trouble within my local Dressage community about this particular incident. It was just something that I personally found troubling. I've been told it was the judges call, and that the judge's decision is fianal, so although I may disagree with the judge, and you, regarding the horse's soundness, I'm not the type to go around trying to ruin someone's reputation over a difference of opinion. I've tried to give an accurate description of the situation to get good advice without naming names or giving enough specifics to harm any particular individual. If you think you may have been present and know to what I'm referring, I can only say that you may be guessing wrong.

[366474]

No problem on clarifying. I guess this is the part that hurts people....
"but she also has a reputation for breaking down horses, mostly from pushing too far too fast out of financial necessity" and also the dirt poor part. It really doesn't seem to have anything to do with how to handle the situation. I am certainly not one for causing trouble either and I realize you didn't name names. Oh well.

[Trevelyan96]

No problem on clarifying. I guess this is the part that hurts people....
"but she also has a reputation for breaking down horses, mostly from pushing too far too fast out of financial necessity" and also the dirt poor part. It really doesn't seem to have anything to do with how to handle the situation. I am certainly not one for causing trouble either and I realize you didn't name names. Oh well.

I'm sorry... I added that part simply because sometimes I see that many riders and trainers in this type of situation are cut a little more slack because people both admire them for their ability and sympathize with them for sometimes having to make tough or questionable decisions regarding the welfare of their horses. It in no way reflects on my opinion of their character or talent. I actually like this individual and admire her talent greatly.

Its a sad fact that less than wealthy professionals in the US are often forced, by financial necessity, to make decisions that aren't always in the best interest of the horse. But we still have a responsibility to address issues when they come up, because we are supposed to be advocates for the horse, who can't speak for himself. I think that there are many diplomatic and face saving ways to do this, but it can't happen if its never discussed openly and honestly.

[LeightonFarm]

I fail to see how this is something that troubled you personally when you have posted it on a public forum.

Some of the things you have said are very nasty about this person without ever approaching them first. If I saw someone on a horse that was lame, I would be concerned enough to tell them, not post it on a public forum after the show is over.

More than that, this is a schooling show and this horse was there to learn about showing. He brought all of his inexperience with him, like the other horses in the class. I am not a judge, but I think in her judgement she pinned the horse she thought was best. Not because she felt the rider was good in spite of being indigent. What does a person's financial position have to do with riding ability and how would the judge know this information?

Your account of this is that everyone at the show could see the horse was lame, but no one spoke to either the judge or the rider about it. It made more sense to post it on a public forum because personally it upset you. I truly can't make sense of this.

[Trevelyan96]

I fail to see how this is something that troubled you personally when you have posted it on a public forum.

1. I originally posted to get advice on something that I found troubling but am not well enough acquainted with the rules / traditions of dressage to feel comfortable pursing further within my GMO without advice from a more experienced community.

Some of the things you have said are very nasty about this person without ever approaching them first. If I saw someone on a horse that was lame, I would be concerned enough to tell them, not post it on a public forum after the show is over.

2. I mentioned my concerns to the people in authority BEFORE the class was pinned. As a newcomer and someone NOT in authority at the show, it was NOT MY PLACE to address the issue with the rider. I was not the ONLY person to have this concern, I may simply be the poor sensitive idiot who is the most upset about it.

More than that, this is a schooling show and this horse was there to learn about showing. He brought all of his inexperience with him, like the other horses in the class. I am not a judge, but I think in her judgement she pinned the horse she thought was best. Not because she felt the rider was good in spite of being indigent. What does a person's financial position have to do with riding ability and how would the judge know this information?

3. My only reason for mentioning this is because I feel that the people IN AUTHORITY AT THE SHOW took this no further for the reason stated above. People can be deliberately blind when their friends are involved. It has nothing to do with the RIDER's character. Its basic human nature, and but when there are horses involved, I see it differently. My opinion of the judging is an entirely separate issue, and I'm entitled to that..

Your account of this is that everyone at the show could see the horse was lame, but no one spoke to either the judge or the rider about it. It made more sense to post it on a public forum because personally it upset you. I truly can't make sense of this.

4. I've received a lot of constructive advice and points of view here, and thoughtfully considered them all. The purpose of a public forum is to gather information, input, and different perspectives to help us make a decision or broaden our understanding of an issue. THAT is why I posted here, BEFORE persuing the issue in a more personal way with the GMO. Because I did not want to start trouble over something that may have actually been 'acceptable'.

At any rate, I think this discussion has gotten out of hand, as its sparked speculation on who specific individuals may be that are involved, which was not my intent. All I was really looking for was input on the rules and advice on whether I did the best I could in a situation that I'm unfamiliar with, and how to handle it appropriately in the future, and I appreciate everyone's input in helping me decide which direction to take regarding just how involved I should or shouldn't be at this point in my GMO. Perhaps its best for me to take a step back and learn more about the specific community I'm a part of before putting myself in a situation where I'm conflicted about my values vs. 'reality'.

[slc2]

THis is what almost always happens with these posts.

Someone complains about a lame horse at a show, and someone else gets on and says 'I was there, the horse was not lame' (and the OP is a nasty old so and so for bringing it up).

The first person says, 'Oh yes he was lame'.

And the second person says, 'Oh no he wasn't', while the rest of us remain blissfully unaware of the truth, or if there is any.

No one on the bulletin board has any idea who's right, and people divide into warring camps, one defending the original complainer and the other camp saying how NASTY she is.

No video will ever be posted, but there will be a few supporting friends checking in on either side to provide character references, and there will be thousands of views as the two mud slinging female cats start really going for the eyeballs.

To the original poster:

1. You made some very nasty comments about the nature of the person involved, some of them coyly enough made that you could back out of them later

2. Other people who were there don't see it the same way you do, and any of us could find out with one PM, what show, what horse, what rider, what trainer, and what judge perpetrated this awful thing. You didn't name names; you didn't need to. Anyone can figure it out if they want to.

To the defendant:

1. Big moving horses don't look lame, unless they are lame

2. Big moving horses don't look lame when they get 'tight', unless 'tight' is a politically correct word for 'lame'.

And no, I'm not taking sides.

Either have a duel, OR EVEN BETTER...keep it to yourselves, and resolve it where it's supposed to be resolved, at the show, with the officials who are actually able to detect lameness and disqualify horses.

[Trevelyan96]

To the original poster:

1. You made some very nasty comments about the nature of the person involved, some of them coyly enough made that you could back out of them later

2. Other people who were there don't see it the same way you do, and any of us could find out with one PM, what show, what horse, what rider, what trainer, and what judge perpetrated this awful thing. You didn't name names; you didn't need to. Anyone can figure it out if they want to.

SLC, you are absolutely right. It wasn't intentional, but it WAS stupid! Its probably time for me to ramp down my 'newbie' enthusiasm and concentrate on learning before being closely involved in the GMO, so I will KNOW the right thing to do when it happens.

[Liz]

If you are new to the GMO it doesn't sound like you are making friends. I am sure you will find that you now have a reputation the next time you go to a show.

[Blkarab]

Judges can stop a test if the horse is uneven in its strides. They don't have to play vet and say the horse is lame, they say the strides are uneven, end of test.

And to be quite honest, I haven't seen a single judge at any level, pin a noticeably lame horse. Ever. Schooling show or otherwise. I see lame horses getting kicked out of the ring. And some of those lamenesses are not so obvious either.

If your riding club condones this kind of thing, or hires judges that do, you need to be more involved in the GMO so that doesn't happen again.

...And don't be shocked if your pronouncement about rigorously disqualifying lame horses is met with an outcry that you're trying to prevent all those darling children from riding their dear elderly babysitter ponies at the show (though in my experience that isn't usually where the problem lies at all).

Is it possible the horse is well known to be rein lame, and you just thought it was lame? It is in some cases just about impossible to tell the difference in a horse you aren't familiar with. Be advised as well - there's a flip side - a cagey rider can cover up lameness almost entirely. People get sold very lame horses every day. If your local eventer rider is so skilled, I doubt you'd see her horse looking lame at all. Sad to say but true.

I'll never forget the experience of watching a gal ride and having someone turn to me and say in a stage whisper, 'That horse is really lame'. I have a very, very good eye, even good vets tell me that, and I saw nothing. Nuh-thing. She went around to every person at the barn and told them the horse was lame. One by one they came out, led by her, to look at the horse. Each one said, and I heard, 'I don't see any lameness'. She insisted the horse was lame. Why? Because her eye was off.

People just aren't good at seeing lameness. They tend to miss a lot of lamenesses and see lamenesses where there aren't any. Don't put your trust in just anyone who might be mad at the local trainer, be sure you're right.

Get independent confirmation and be sure you're right. IT's a very, very negative thing to say about a trainer. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I've seen that happen, and I know it does. At the same time, you have to ask yourself, what would a trainer gain by riding a horse in a local show that's head bobbing lame? Why would someone do that? Isn't that just about guaranteed to make them look like an ass and lose customers?

THis is what almost always happens with these posts.

Someone complains about a lame horse at a show, and someone else gets on and says 'I was there, the horse was not lame' (and the OP is a nasty old so and so for bringing it up).

The first person says, 'Oh yes he was lame'.

And the second person says, 'Oh no he wasn't', while the rest of us remain blissfully unaware of the truth, or if there is any.

No one on the bulletin board has any idea who's right, and people divide into warring camps, one defending the original complainer and the other camp saying how NASTY she is.

No video will ever be posted, but there will be a few supporting friends checking in on either side to provide character references, and there will be thousands of views as the two mud slinging female cats start really going for the eyeballs.

To the original poster:

1. You made some very nasty comments about the nature of the person involved, some of them coyly enough made that you could back out of them later

2. Other people who were there don't see it the same way you do, and any of us could find out with one PM, what show, what horse, what rider, what trainer, and what judge perpetrated this awful thing. You didn't name names; you didn't need to. Anyone can figure it out if they want to.

To the defendant:

1. Big moving horses don't look lame, unless they are lame

2. Big moving horses don't look lame when they get 'tight', unless 'tight' is a politically correct word for 'lame'.

And no, I'm not taking sides.

Either have a duel, OR EVEN BETTER...keep it to yourselves, and resolve it where it's supposed to be resolved, at the show, with the officials who are actually able to detect lameness and disqualify horses.

SLC---totally, totally agree with these 2 posts! You are dead right on both points and some very solid advice for the OP.