Rules?? Lame Horse Pinning 1st at Show????

[Equibrit]

Your best route to seeing that these things don't happen is to become more involved in your local GMO. Make it your mission to get rules implemented for local schooling shows that make it very clear who is responsible for calling a horse out for lameness, you could even promote the use of local (volunteer !) TDs. It is apparent that in your group these things aren't too clear, otherwise you would not be asking here.

[slc2]

Judges can stop a test if the horse is uneven in its strides. They don't have to play vet and say the horse is lame, they say the strides are uneven, end of test.

And to be quite honest, I haven't seen a single judge at any level, pin a noticeably lame horse. Ever. Schooling show or otherwise. I see lame horses getting kicked out of the ring. And some of those lamenesses are not so obvious either.

If your riding club condones this kind of thing, or hires judges that do, you need to be more involved in the GMO so that doesn't happen again.

...And don't be shocked if your pronouncement about rigorously disqualifying lame horses is met with an outcry that you're trying to prevent all those darling children from riding their dear elderly babysitter ponies at the show (though in my experience that isn't usually where the problem lies at all).

Is it possible the horse is well known to be rein lame, and you just thought it was lame? It is in some cases just about impossible to tell the difference in a horse you aren't familiar with. Be advised as well - there's a flip side - a cagey rider can cover up lameness almost entirely. People get sold very lame horses every day. If your local eventer rider is so skilled, I doubt you'd see her horse looking lame at all. Sad to say but true.

I'll never forget the experience of watching a gal ride and having someone turn to me and say in a stage whisper, 'That horse is really lame'. I have a very, very good eye, even good vets tell me that, and I saw nothing. Nuh-thing. She went around to every person at the barn and told them the horse was lame. One by one they came out, led by her, to look at the horse. Each one said, and I heard, 'I don't see any lameness'. She insisted the horse was lame. Why? Because her eye was off.

People just aren't good at seeing lameness. They tend to miss a lot of lamenesses and see lamenesses where there aren't any. Don't put your trust in just anyone who might be mad at the local trainer, be sure you're right.

Get independent confirmation and be sure you're right. IT's a very, very negative thing to say about a trainer. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I've seen that happen, and I know it does. At the same time, you have to ask yourself, what would a trainer gain by riding a horse in a local show that's head bobbing lame? Why would someone do that? Isn't that just about guaranteed to make them look like an ass and lose customers?

[honeydoozy]

As a scribe to countless judges, I have never seen a horse rung out for lameness. I have asked several *why* they never do, and the answer is routinely the same: If a horse "can complete the required movement", regardless of "irregularity" or being "uneven"... they can continue their test.

Judges *really* don't want to eliminate based on perceived "lameness" for all the reasons listed above.

[tlw]

Sorry to be uninformed but what, exactly, is rein lame?

[Sabine]

As a scribe to countless judges, I have never seen a horse rung out for lameness. I have asked several *why* they never do, and the answer is routinely the same: If a horse "can complete the required movement", regardless of "irregularity" or being "uneven"... they can continue their test.

Judges *really* don't want to eliminate based on perceived "lameness" for all the reasons listed above.

How is it then that they rung out Leslie Morse? A rule is a rule- and it must be applied to ALL and fairly and evenly!

[Dressage Art]

It is a shame that many lame horses are allowed to show in dressage arenas. It's sick that judges have to beat around the bush and call it uneven or unlevel or rein-lame or short steps, or that a horse got a stone in his hoofs and bla, bla, bla... I'm sick of watching lame horses pushed to "show". And it's getting worse! To hear about lame horse showing in dressage is not a shock anymore. Riders know that judges are reluctant to ring horses out so they are not even afraid to show lame horses anymore!!! And some riders are very fast to dismiss their horse's lameness as well.

Yes, judge has to have some balls to call a lame horse = a lame horse and ring a bell. I wish more judges would ring the bell on lameness. Horses don't have a voice and lame horses deserve to rest, not to show in pain and be uncomfortable for the benefit of humans.

There are some USEF guidelines for ringing the bell (short version):

Obvious lameness consistently observable at trot all the time:
*a marked head nod or shortened stride
*an observable hip hike
*a combination of a marked head nod, shortened stride, an observable hip hike
*minimal weight-bearing in motion or at rest.

There is difference between stiff and lame. Stiff, but even is OK. If lameness is just for a couple of steps = it’s not lame. It has to be consistent lameness. I scribed when horses were rang out and scribed when horses were not rang out, but given a 4 for every almost-lame movement with comment “uneven”. I scribed when judge was tearing herself up that she should ring out a rider, but never did: didn't want to step in do-do.

Now you also have 2 Olympic riders who showed uneven horses, one was rang out (Kingston, World Cup), but another one was let to finish the test (Brentina, Olympics). Different judges = different decisions.

I’m relived that Leslie Morse was rang out for lameness at the World Cup – b/c her horse was markedly lame on several movements, it was painful to watch, but Leslie kept on going and didn’t stop herself for whatever reason (?). I’m relived to see that a judge at C had enough balls to ring her out. I’m relived that judge at C had horse’s well being in her mind, rather than how the Big Name Trainer will look if she would be rang out for lameness and the backlash.

However, at the Olympics Brentina wasn’t rang out, but probably had a similar uneveness as Kingston. It was also painful to watch that test. Some think that judge was correct for not ringing Brentina out. Some thing that judge should off ring Brentina out. Personally for me, ringing out lame horse is the best solution. However, for some others, letting a lame horse finish a test is the best solution since there will not be backlash for the judge who spoke up. Nobody would question if the horse was really lame or just took a couple of "off" steps and would off been OK the next second.

A judge who rings horse for lameness can become VERY unpopular and is bound to get a backlash from rang out competitor and her/his following. But I hope and pray that judges will uphold the welfare of horses higher than a fear of backlash from ranged out rider. (be it verbal, nasty emails, PMs, lawsuits and so on).

[nhwr]

This is the kind of B$ that makes me nutz.

What exactly is the difference between lameness (of any origin, rein, mechanical or discomfort) and constant stiffness? And why should it matter? If a horse is off, for whatever reason, its will gaits lack purity. This should be reflected in the score. If the horse is truly lame, the rules say it should be excused. I think the judge should have the backbone to do it. The horse's welfare must come before everything.
If judges are too afraid to abide by the rules, they ought not judge or they should work to have the rule changed.

Question;
I know the judge has authority in the show ring, but if a horse is lame in the warm up and it is brought to the TD's attention, does the TD have any recourse?

[Dressage Art]

Sorry to be uninformed but what, exactly, is rein lame?

Rein-lame is usually a result of a tight back and stiff neck in a horse that is doing the movement that is too difficult for him to do. It can be often seen in lateral work when horse will be uneven, but on the straight lines horse is back to being even. That is not continues lameness, so it's shortly called rein-lame, but this term is not really used in judging.

[jse]

I too saw this happen at a small schooling show last summer. Horse was head-bobbing lame and won champion in the HUS division. Whaaaaaat? Everyone was commenting it, but nothing was done.

[Nick-]

I have shown a horse who went great in the warm up, tightened up when we went into the ring. He was totally even on the straight away but his back tightened on the lateral work and he became uneven (and don't kid yourself...I totally knew it. Even have a video of it in case I forget.). I am sure there were several armchair quarterbacks in the stands in complete horror that my horse was uneven. Even more upset when I went on to win the class. My trainer was a bit more diplomatic. She suggested we work more on the horse stretching into an even and consistent contact at home. She said he tightend up and I lost his back. The judge gave us an "irregular" for the lateral work but had some really nice comments at the end like "very capable pair at this level".

When I read these posts, knowing my story, I kind of take everything with a grain of salt. Rather than be too critical, I usually feel bad for them. No one wants to compete on a lame horse, even if it is only in the lateral work.

What those armchair quarterbacks in the stands do not know is that after that ride the last thing on my mind was my score. As soon as I got off my focus was on making sure my horse was o.k.. I had a vet out (horse is fine). I had a massage person work on him (horse is a bit tight). They are probably still telling friends a story about this time they saw a lame horse win a class when it was lame in the trot lateral work and didn't that idiot rider know it.

I would also like to add that after the class I went into the warm up ring to really stretch him and get him through over his back (thinking that he had tightened his back in the test)and yes....he was totally even (have a video of that too.....showed the vet).

[slc2]

Brentina and Kingston's cases were about as different looking as night and day, it takes a good eye for gaits and lameness to see that.

Sometimes, a rider or trainer will have a horse that he knows is not a hundred percent. Without violating the strict FEI drug policies, he has quite a few tactics he can resort to.

He can work the horse very lightly before and during the show, hoping to 'save' the horse for the class.

He may go so far as to just walk during the warmup or to do exercises that won't reveal the lameness.

Usually, for each type of injury or lameness there are certain movements that are 'kimono openers'. He will avoid those.

One might see a horse that looks surprisingly unfit and chubby, or is uncharacteristically frisky, tense or excited in the competition, or both. One might see lameness that only shows for a few moments, such as during a spook or buck, and that then, mysteriously disappears. A skilled rider can conceal lameness in a horse by clever use of legs, seat and rein.

Horse lameness can also be concealed in various other ways. I've heard of people giving horses shock wave treatments days before a show, because it numbs the nerves in the area of the injury. Of course that wouldn't be ethical, but it also would not be found in a drug test, as would a number of other things not be found.

And then there comes a point where the horse's action cannot be concealed, no matter how clever the rider.

'Rein lame' is caused not by trying hard in a movement that's too hard for the horse or being tight here or there, it is a much bigger problem, the most basic, fundamental part of the horse's training being - wrong.

[jse]

To prev poster: Dressage judges, TD's and officials are not responsible for lame horses in Hunt Seat classes. Hunt seat show problems probably should be covered in a different thread.

Brentina was like mmmm....er.....uh....?????.....er.....wft....uh... ..Kingston looked like he had a flat tire, and four of the bolts had come loose. These were too very, very different situations. One needs to have a good enough eye to see both lamenesses and compare them.

A cagey rider can ride the horse in such a way as to conceal lameness. When the condition gets too severe, even a very cagey rider can't cover it up.

'Rein lame' is caused not by trying hard in a movement that's too hard for the horse or being tight here or there, it is a much bigger problem, the most basic, fundamental part of the horse's training being - wrong. You can see 'rein lame' when a horse is being ridden at a posting trot on a straight line, it doesn't have to be doing anything at all hard. The horse is crooked, the contact is wrong, the most basic things are just - wrong. The horse takes uneven steps because he is being ridden so unevenly.

If a horse is old and a little stiff, many people still want to show that horse, especially for students at a local show. There will be a point at which any judge, instructor or even student should say, 'this is too lame, this is too much'.

You know what? That World Cup Discussion forum messes everything up for me! I keep clicking on this forum thinking it's the Hunter/Jumper forum and wondering why in the heck we are talking dressage....and then after I post I realize why.

[Daventry]

It is a shame that many lame horses are allowed to show in dressage arenas. It's sick that judges have to beat around the bush and call it uneven or unlevel or rein-lame or short steps, or that a horse got a stone in his hoofs and bla, bla, bla... I'm sick of watching lame horses pushed to "show". And it's getting worse! To hear about lame horse showing in dressage is not a shock anymore. Riders know that judges are reluctant to ring horses out so they are not even afraid to show lame horses anymore!!! And some riders are very fast to dismiss their horse's lameness as well.

You are being naive if you think the dressage arena is the only place lame horses are showing up. It happens in ALL aspects of the horse world, whether it be hunter/jumper, reining, driving, etc. It still doesn't make it right, but dressage isn't the only discipline with "uneven" horses competing!

[Dressage Art]

Sure, there are more atrocious things going on at the rodeos and racing, but those are not Olympic sports or sports that I participate in. Just b/c there are worse things going on in other sports, we shouldn't close our eyes on lameness in our sport. Especially in our sport, since it suppose to be the highest level partnership and dance between horse and rider. With even a slightly lame horse = harmony of dressage is lost... at least for me. And I’m getting tired watching uneven horses in dressage arenas… it’s not a pleasure to watch them do the "uneven/irregular" dance.

[narcisco]

I'm going to differ with the role of the TD. Although the TD can not eliminate a horse for lameness, if there is cruelty or abuse in the warm-up, then it is the TD's job to step in. I've seen it happen where the TD considered the riding of a very lame horse in the warm up to be abusive. The TD does have the power to step in for cruelty and abuse, which sometimes goes beyond whipping, spurring and blood on the horse. The TD is authorized to confer with the judge.

[Dressage Art]

Narcisco, judge only has an authority in the show ring. Outside of the show ring it's the show management that makes the final decision. While TD can/must step in - the final decision is always lays either on a judge (in a show arena) or on the show manager (outside of the show arena). However, TD still can submit a written report to USEF, even if nothing is done by a judge or by a show manager - then it's up to USEF to decide about the incident afterwards.

[Sabine]

I sadly think that this is a cultural issue that will resolve itself soon- the tolerance for any kind of public discomfort - pain involved or not- is running very much out- so that the public will speak up and the responsible parties will kick in- in order to save the validity of their event/activity/competition.
It is not acceptable in our times - with our knowledge and education- to watch a horse perform in apparent pain- or dysfunction of one of their limbs- it is against everything we believe in, advertise and support.
Since all equestrian organizations are against the wall-economically - like most companies- they will clean up their act...and this is part of it..and a good part I believe.
Not acceptable and just not thinkable...I feel for the converted dressage enthousiast that had to witness this disaster in a schooling show! What a put-off!

[slc2]

First of all, tolerance of and even recognition of lameness varies from division to division. When you see pictures on 'off course' of horses that are supposedly sound and for sale, and their back is so humped up you could put a camel saddle on it, you have to recognize, people ARE showing lame horses.

They're medicating them, they're selling them, yes, they're showing them. People DO. No one here? As usual, but we do have these protests that if lameness disqualification was strictly adhered to wouldn't it be such a horrible shame for all their older but not quite right horses who LOVE showing so much, how can you take that away from the dear sweet animals who are so game as to 'play hurt'....(vomit icon).

There's a point at which that goes a little too far, and it usually doesn't take too long.

On the one hand, we have posts like this one, complaining of lame horses pinning in shows, and on the other hand, we have posts about how cruel and unfair judges are if they don't allow the dear horse the satisfaction of showing.

People do this at local shows, usually banking on the fact that most observers don't get around enough to realize what's going on, or they have some complex explanation like, 'It's ok to do this, everyone does it'. It's not confined to small time local professional trainers, but that is an interesting place to look.

There's getting to be more and more people who aren't willing to support trainers like that. But unfortunately, the horse business being what it is, trainers go through 'generations' of customers, and when all of one batch of customers have left, word doesn't usually get around to the new batch of customers, and people tend to 'get more innocent' this way.

Amateurs without any financial pressure on them, who don't make a living at riding, should be a cleaner bunch, but they can get awful crazy when they want to win a medal or award.

USUALLY...the FEI sets fairly high standards for their events, that mean that riders don't usually get away with much. But people learn ways around the rules. The problem is not always with old horses that should have been retired long ago, but that is a common place to find it.

Elite level dressage is hard on horses. They don't stay sound forever, at least, not sound enough to work that hard. At some point the career ends. It is tempting to try to prolong it, and people do that. Most people realize that they will only get one horse like that, and that the public forgets quickly.

[narcisco]

DressageArt,

I agree with you completely. Others were saying "it was none of the TD's business," but someone has to be in charge outside the show ring.

As for Kingston and Brentina, I watched both rides. Brentina was merely stiff and older, not what people were used to seeing from her, but a natural progression of an aging horse. Kingston was clearly off right hind. Neither were even close to being as lame as the poor horse doing false passage in a recent you-tube video.

[Janet]

DressageArt,

I agree with you completely. Others were saying "it was none of the TD's business," but someone has to be in charge outside the show ring.

To clarify, I said it wasn't the TD's business to determine whether or not a lame horse won the class.

OF COURSE there are plenty of things the TD can do outside the arena about a lame horse. But that wasn't the question.